→ someme:可是貓咪是肉食動物不是嗎?為啥要為難貓阿 推 219.91.106.2 04/26
→ getbacker:貓科動物天生就是吃肉的 ╮(=_=")╭ 推140.112.243.228 04/26
→ aletheia:貓吃全素會有健康上的危險 推 210.85.6.135 04/26
→ aletheia:但是這問題在營養調配上可以克服 推 210.85.6.135 04/26
→ whatangel:為什麼要刻意讓貓吃素啊? 我不懂 推 61.223.135.227 04/26
→ whatangel:原意是找不到便宜的飼料,只好以素狗食代替 推 61.223.135.227 04/26
→ whatangel:可是狗食原本就不是為貓設計的,不能長久吃 推 61.223.135.227 04/26
→ whatangel:餵浪貓維生無妨，但家貓實在沒吃素的必要 推 61.223.135.227 04/26
→ rosewolf:有沒有懂得動物營養學的人能分析一下呢？ 推220.139.244.158 04/26
→ rosewolf:聽起來有道理但我真的不能被說服 推220.139.244.158 04/26
→ rosewolf:畢竟貓以肉食為主 吃全素真的比較健康嗎 推220.139.244.158 04/26
→ rosewolf:這應該要實驗才能證明吧 推220.139.244.158 04/26
→ kuokevin:既然要說好幾句話..用回文不是咖方便? :P 推 61.223.153.38 04/26
→ whatangel:請看精華區10-1-8-2...有相關討論 推 61.223.135.227 04/26
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: whatangel (-N9-) 看板: cat
標題: Re: 關於素飼料的一些想法
時間: Mon Apr 26 21:05:04 2004
※ 引述《pepsilin (知識天的圖書館員)》之銘言：
: 我不認為貓不能吃素，當然，前提是營養要顧到。
我個人認為 在預算考量下可餵野貓吃便宜的素食飼料混搭
但是自家養的貓沒必要吃素
: 雖然有些貓必須的營養素只有動物性蛋白質才有，
: 但這部分可以靠維他命來彌補。
: 我的想法是：
: 與其餵貓吃爛牌子的飼料，
: 不如餵貓吃素飼料，
: 或至少是[素飼料＋好牌子的飼料]。
: 最早的素食貓飼料出現在北美，
: 這些品牌針對的就是貓的營養需求，
: 所以有針對植物性蛋白質所不足的部分，特別添加營養劑。
: 這些雖然是素食飼料，
: 但上市前一樣要經過檢驗，
: 所以這些牌子的飼料，對貓只有可能不夠營養，不會有壞處。
如果缺少某些必要營養 算是壞處嗎?
: 北美吃素者，多半是基於健康理由，而非宗教理由。
: 北美之所以會出現素貓食，
: 正是因為她們看到肉食飼料所隱含的可能健康風險。
: 為什麼好市多之前的大包裝貓食，與Hill's的貓食同一間工廠製造，
: 價錢卻差將近三倍半？
: 最主要的原因，就是因為肉品來源不同。
: 大家以為貓飼料的肉品從哪裡來？
: 絕對都是大型畜牧業剩下動物屍體製成的骨粉。
: 既然如此，可見便宜的肉品，品質一定有問題。
: 有哪些工廠會把上等的肉品拿來製成飼料？
: 一定都是剩下不要的部分（如內臟或頭）才會拿來製成飼料。
: 好牌子的飼料可能用的是動物屠宰過程剩下的肉，
: 但爛牌子的飼料卻可能用的是病死或老死的屍體。
: 雖然這些飼料在上市前都得經過檢驗，
: 但畢竟動物飼料的檢驗標準，不會比人吃的食物檢驗標準要高，
這...不一定吧?
: 到底能有多安全，其實也很難說個準。
: 這些部分會不會有隱藏的問題？不知道。
: 在英國爆發狂牛症之前，
: 也沒人想過牛肉會有這些問題。
: 寶路的牌子作得這麼大，誰想到會有腎衰竭的問題？
寶路、偉嘉、喜躍飼料過鹹 標示不明 在網路上早就很有名了
但並不是人人會上網做功課
寶路跟其它飼料廠商相比，寶路只是贏在電視廣告
因此一般養狗人家，想到買狗食，就聯想到寶路這個品牌
會預設立場認為「有廣告==好產品」
一般人買東西的時候，面對不熟悉的產品，多數會先選擇自己「有印象」的
等進一步瞭解比較後，才會選擇「有品質」的
這是寶路熱賣的一個原因
: 問題，總要等爆發了以後才會知道。
: 大的牌子不一定肉品來源就有保障，
: 貴的牌子也不代表產品一定比較可靠；
: 在現代的資本主義世界裡，
: 商品多半賣的是廣告，是行銷；
: 因此，光從營養成分標記與品牌，
: 其實很難真正判斷飼料的好壞。
: 畢竟，肉類的東西難處理，容易腐敗，也容易變質，
: 肉品來源不佳、運輸保存過程有疏失、調理不慎、....等等
以上三點差錯也可能出在穀物上啊..@@
: 有太多的因素會導致最後的產品有問題。
: 反觀素飼料，原料都是穀物，其實沒有太大問題；
: 既不會有過鹹的問題，也不會有狂牛症的陰影。
穀物就不會過鹹? 這是多種原料調配的結果吧
我不認為這跟肉做的或穀類做的有關耶...@_@
: 前一陣子爆發寶路泰國廠因為穀物發霉而將產品撤架的事件，
: 這個事件雖然提醒了我們：即便素飼料也會有穀物發霉的風險；
: 但大家別忘了：寶路泰國廠可是專門製造肉飼料的！
: 現在市面上的肉飼料，全部都含有穀物的成分。
: 所以要說榖物發霉的風險，
: 無論是肉飼料還是素飼料，
: 其實風險都差不多，並沒有素飼料風險比較高的道理。
: 總而言之，目前國內並沒有完全針對貓設計的素食飼料，
: 但這種產品在北美已經有了，而且還有好幾個不同品牌。
: 由此可見，北美的素食貓飼料的市場並不小，
: 至少可以支撐兩三個品牌彼此作競爭。
我個人認為…
有市場...只表示的確有這麼一群目標顧客存在
而正好有廠商願意滿足他們的需求
但不代表這個市場很大
: 難道北美的貓主大部分都不知道貓是肉食性動物嗎？
: 我想不會那麼無知吧！
: 或許，北美之所以有那麼多人改用貓飼料，
: 是因為她們看見了素食貓飼料的好處。
: 雖然目前國內並沒有人代理素食貓飼料，
: 但只要國內（潛在）市場夠大，自然會有人代理進來賣。
: 我自己目前是把素食狗飼料與高級貓飼料混合餵養，
: 兩者比例大概是一比二或一比三，
: 同時每天加餵牠們維他命。
: 一個有趣的現象是：
: 我過去只餵貓吃肉飼料，
: 通常每次放固定的量讓牠們自己吃，每天放兩到三次；
: 結果，通常飼料放半天之後，
: 牠們就不太想吃了，所以只好把牠們吃剩的肉飼料拿去餵野貓。
: 我個人推測有兩種可能：
: 一者可能是飼料受潮，另一者則可能是飼料放久了腐敗了；
放久了香味跑掉了，不香貓咪自然沒興趣
一般飼料倒出來後，放一兩天是沒問題的
: 但我住在高雄，外頭太陽大得很，
: 我飼料都有密封保存，倒出來之後也只不過放在室溫半天，
: 這短短五六個小時就會受潮腐敗，未免也太誇張了吧！
: 現在，由於素飼料比較不會腐敗，所以可以放比較久，
: 我一次放的量也可以比較多，牠們也比較容易吃飽；
: 同樣的量，肉食飼料放個半天牠們就不肯吃了。
: 由於我現在沒有買到素食貓飼料，
: 所以我是將素食狗飼料與貓飼料混合餵牠們吃。
: 就我的觀察，牠們的活動力並沒有減弱，
: 但口氣與糞便的臭味好多了。
: 為了避免營養不足，
: 我每天另外餵維他命作為補充。
: 就目前為止，我個人覺得牠們的反應還不錯。
: 素飼料除了適口性差了點（因為沒有肉味），
: 其實還滿不錯的。
: 我不建議全部餵素食狗飼料，
: 因為畢竟植物性蛋白質不足以提供貓所必須的營養素；
: 但如果將現有飼料混合部分的素食狗飼料，
: 我倒認為是個不錯的方案。
: 同樣的價錢，可以買更多的飼料，
: 可以放比較久，也不怕密封不全的問題，
: 素食飼料吃多也不會胖，
: 也不會有過鹹過油的風險。
: 如果能夠補充其它的營養素，
: 其實素飼料還是大有可為的。
其實我覺得你很細心，還會為貓貓著想，另外買維它命補充營養 ^^
但如果hill's恢復進口
我還是會支持用好市多飼料餵浪貓 :)
--
ζＣＡＴs in My Life ζ
http://photo.pchome.com.tw/s01/whatangel/
琉璃送出，又回到獨自養老的日子.體重不受控制愈來愈胖(肥?)的可樂
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 61.223.135.227
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: pepsilin (知識天的圖書館員) 看板: cat
標題: Re: 關於素飼料的一些想法
時間: Tue Apr 27 11:21:31 2004
或許大家不知道：
其實，根據現在的屠宰方式，
肉品的很多營養素都會作業流程中流失，
因此即便是肉品飼料，
也是靠添加合成營養素的方式來提供必要營養。
也就是說，除非是自己調理肉品餵貓，
不然無論是素食飼料還是肉品飼料，
其實貓所需要的必要營養素都是來自人工合成。
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 218.172.184.155
→ kanabo:............... 推 210.69.110.10 04/27
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: pepsilin (知識天的圖書館員) 看板: cat
標題: Re: 關於素飼料的一些想法
時間: Tue Apr 27 11:23:40 2004
轉貼一篇文章供大家參考。
作者現在已經完全餵狗貓素食，
但她並不是隨便亂餵，
而是考量各種必要的營養需求。
----
Can Dogs and Cats Go Vegan?
By Sandy Anderson
Knowledge and understanding of nutrient
requirements of dogs and cats and their application has
grown dramatically over the last ten years. The National
Research Council Committee on Animal Nutrition (NRA) and
the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO)
have published guidelines of the minimum dietary
requirement for dogs and cats for essential nutrients.
These are expressed as amounts per kilo of body weight per
day per animal. There are mathematical equations given to
establish a dog or cats needs taking into account its size,
age, activity, requirements for growth and pregnancy. The
AAFCO standard is considered the latest and best reference
and is used by all pet food manufacturers. These standards
are intended to serve as a guide only as we seem to be
learning constantly about different nutrients needed to
keep our pets in the best of health.
Although the dog and cat have about equal status as
companion animals, they are two totally different species.
Things you can feed to a dog can be poison to a cat. A dog
can live on commercial cat food but a cat will die if fed
only dog food. There is a huge difference in dogs' and cats
' physiological, behavioural and dietary habits. Dogs
evolved from an omnivorous species while cats evolved from
a strictly carnivorous diet. The shorter gastrointestinal
tract of the cat results in a rapid rate of passage, and
therefore lower digestibility, of foods than the dog.
Because of this there are many very special needs in a cat'
s diet.
These differences are the cat's unique energy and
glucose metabolism, higher protein requirement, need for
the amino acid, taurine, sensitivity to a deficiency of the
amino acid, arginine, inability to convert beta-carotene to
active vitamin A, the inability to convert the amino acid,
tryptophan, to niacin and the inability to convert linoleic
acid effectively into essential long-chain fatty acids.
This is why many vets and nutritionists say cats cannot be
vegan but dogs can if given a nutritionally balanced diet.
For the last two years I have been working on
making a vegan dry extruded dog and cat food using vegan
alternatives to supply all of the cat's and dog's
nutritional needs. This food meets the NRC and AAFCO
standards and, in some instances, exceeds them. The body's
basic building, energising and replacing materials can come
from a meat or chicken source or from a soybean and seaweed
source. It doesn't matter. What matters is that the basic
cellular structure is the same from either source. I have
now found all the vegan alternatives and am able to produce
nutritionally-balanced food for both cats and dogs.
Proteins are complex molecules. Amino acids form
the basic units of protein. There are 22 alpha amino acids.
Dogs and cats are able to synthesise 12 amino acids at a
sufficient rate to meet their body's needs for growth,
performance and maintenance. These are called non-essential
amino acids. They can either be supplied in the diet or
synthesised by the body. The remaining 10 amino acids
cannot be synthesised at a sufficient rate to meet the body'
s needs. These are called essential amino acids and must be
supplied in the pet's diet. Cats have an added requirement
for taurine, a beta amino acid. Animals are unable to store
excess amino acids.
Taurine and Little Tyke
Little Tyke was a 352lb (160kg) African lioness
that was rejected from birth by her imprisoned mother. The
kind people who rescued poor little Tyke took her back to
their ranch in Seattle to raise. From the beginning, Tyke
disliked any kind of meat or blood, preferring milk and rice
. Tyke grew up a total vegetarian, becoming famous by
appearing on television shows with her friends which were
kittens, chickens and a pet lamb. Tyke would chew on an old
gumboot as a bone but never showed her huge teeth to any
other living thing. Tyke died at four years of age,
probably from viral pneumonia, but some say from taurine
deficiency. Although taurine is found in small amounts in
milk and eggs, it was insufficient for her.
Taurine is vital for cats' well-being. While other
species can manufacture it in their bodies, cats cannot.
Taurine is vital for a healthy retina (that part of the eye
where images are formed). Deficiency will ultimately cause
blindness. Cardiomyopathy (a disease where the heart muscle
turns flabby, losing its ability to pump), reproductive
problems, immune system dysfunction and many more problems
arise from taurine deficiency. If acted upon quickly, some
of these conditions can be reversed.
Unwittingly, many caring cat owners who feed
vegetarian diets to their pet cats actually run the risk of
causing them chronic malnutrition. Taurine is mainly
available from animal sources with only trace amounts found
in plants. All pet food manufacturers use synthetic taurine
, being both easier to use and more economical. I use
synthetic taurine in my vegan cat food.
Arginine
Arginine is an essential amino acid. A cat fed on
an arginine-free diet will not only fail to grow, but also
lose body mass at a very fast rate. Other signs are
vocalisation (moaning), tetanic spasms, extended limbs with
exposed claws, apnea (absence of breath) and, finally, death
.
Vitamin A
Beta carotene is converted to vitamin A (retinol)
in the intestine of dogs but the cat, because of its short
intestine, is unable to do this. Cats must be provided with
a pre- formed source of Vitamin A. Natural pre-formed
vitamin A is found only in animal products in which the
animal has metabolised the carotene into vitamin A -
storing concentrates in certain tissues, mainly the liver.
Cats obtained their vitamin A in the wild by killing and
eating the whole catch, including the liver. Synthetic
vitamin A is freely available and is used in all cat foods,
wet or dry. I use this form in my vegan cat food. Vitamin A
toxicity in cats is possible (though rare) as absorption of
pre-formed Vitamin A is not regulated in the intestine.
Therefore organ meats such as liver and kidney, and some
fish oils, should be given sparingly.
Niacin
Niacin is a B vitamin. The inability of cats, and
the very poor ability of dogs, to convert tryptophan (an
essential amino acid) to niacin is not a major concern as
it can be found in grains, yeast, and oil meals. A
vegetarian source of niacin can easily be supplied.
Vitamin C
Unlike humans, both cats and dogs make their own
vitamin C. According to animal naturopaths, if a dog or cat
is unwell or old, added vitamin C is recommended. I have
put some in my vegan food as I believe it can only be
beneficial. You cannot overdose on vitamin C as the body
simply excretes it.
Fatty Acids
Most animal and human species have the ability to
convert linolenic acid into a balance of Omega 3, Omega 6
and other essential long-chain fatty acids (EFAs) such as
DHA (docosahexaenoic acid) AA (arachidonic acid) and EPA (
eicosapentaenoic acid). Cats cannot do this. This is very
recent knowledge and it has been extremely difficult for me
to find a vegan source. Linolenic acid is very easy to find
, being abundant in seafood, flaxseed (linseed), canola and
sunflower oil. However this is of no use to cats because
they cannot synthesise it. AA is essential for healthy skin
and coat as well as for lipid transport in the blood. DHA
is essential for healthy eyes and brain function. EPA is
important in balancing the prostaglandins that affect
chronic degenerative diseases.
Cats get AA, DHA and EPA from animal flesh, liver,
brain or from fish. The fish get it from micro algae, so
this is where I looked. I found the different micro algae
that provide vegan sources for all the long chain fatty
acids but they are extremely unstable and great care has to
be taken in preserving them.
What I have learnt from making my food is that all
nutrients need to be in balance in order to be utilised
properly. Where possible I use whole food as a source of
nutrients (e.g., spirulina, barley grass, flaxseed meal, etc
.), only using synthetic replacements when absolutely
essential. I believe this is the safest way to make a
quality balanced food.
After much reading, and two years of research and
experimentation, I believe I am ready to manufacture a
commercial vegan food for dogs and cats. I hope it will be
readily available very soon.
Volunteers from animal welfare groups have
volunteered their dogs and cats to do palatability and
digestibility feeding trials. Following a strict set of
guidelines, these animals are involved in the final testing
of my food. They are undertaking these tests in their own
homes while being closely monitored by their owners. If an
animal shows any sign of distress it is immediately removed
from the trial. So far not one animal has dropped out. By
conducting the tests in this way I believe that I have
tested my food in a loving, caring way and have avoided
supporting any animal testing company.
With my dry pet food there will be a guide on how
much food your pet should eat to receive all requisite
nutrients in one day. If you give this food as a base and
then add whatever else your pet would like to eat with it,
you can be safe in the knowledge that they are getting all
the nutrients they need.
By now those feeding vegetarian food to their cat
or dog are probably feeling very worried. Please do not fear
. If you want to feed your pet on a vegan diet, or you have
any worries or concerns about how to go about this, please
feel free to contact me at the address below.
If you wish to continue to feed your pet on meat,
fish and chicken, without getting into details comparing
commercial pet foods with home made pet foods, it is
important to understand a few things about commercial foods
. The best standard by which to judge the quality of
currently available pet foods is the cost. Generally
speaking, the more expensive the food, the better quality
are the ingredients. So if you wish to continue feeding
your pet on commercial pet food always choose above average
priced food and the best known brands (these are the
companies that are serious about image and quality and have
the funds to spend on analysis, quality ingredients, etc.).
Read labels very carefully, telephone the enquiry line and
ask questions if you don't understand.
Most dry pet foods are a complete and balanced diet
but very few tinned foods are, so you should not feed your
pet only tinned food. A mix of both is best, always
supplementing with an uncooked bone.
Have you ever wondered why pet food is kept
separate from human food at points of purchase? Because it
is not fit for human consumption! Why is this? The major
source of animal protein for pet food is “the four Ds “..
. Dead, Dying, Diseased or Disabled animals.
So what exactly would an animal found dead,
suffering or dying in a paddock have wrong with it? A
disease, cancer, kidney, lung, blood or liver infection?
Perhaps an overdose of pesticide? No one knows for certain,
but such animals are put down and used for pet food. Also
of concern is the possibility of veterinary drugs still
present in the animal.
These animals are then cut up and used as ‘choice
cuts' of beef or lamb, or ‘plump whole chicken', as the
pet food labels claim. Being thrifty institutions,
slaughterhouses take all that is left over, including the
head, legs, intestines, liver and lungs (not to mention
whatever it was that the animal died of) and render it down
in a big vat. The hair is skimmed from the top and whatever
remains dried and powdered, leaving beef or chicken meal,
meat and poultry by-products or digests. These products are
found in every dog and cat food available to day. I think
this is a questionable source of nourishment for our animals
. Read the label. What is feather meal? Yes, it is ground
up feathers! Very high in protein, but totally indigestible
. The same goes for blood meal.
Have you ever wondered why our pets become ill or
allergic, develop chronic digestive problems or sometimes
die very young? Could it be a result of the food they are
eating? With the above in mind, are we being so cruel by
feeding nutritionally-balanced vegan food to our pets? I
think not. We now have the possibility to make a more
humane choice by not feeding our pets the products of other
animals.
I would like to add a few points on feeding your
dog and cat. The old way of thinking was to feed your dog
once a day. This has now been proved incorrect. My dogs
showed me this years ago (they love their breakfast!).
Dogs should be fed at least twice a day. This stops
them from gorging their food and bloating while also
reducing digestive problems. Feeding one meal a day can
also irritate the esophagus with stomach acid. Cats will
eat and drink randomly throughout the day and night. Their
meals are always small (about 25g) and they eat between 8
and16 meals in a 24 hour period. Adult cats can adapt to
being fed twice a day while kittens and pregnant cats need
feeding at more frequent intervals. This is because of
their short gastrointestinal tract.
Always make sure your pet has clean, pure water
available. If you change from tank water to town water take
into account the chlorine and fluoride content of the water
as this can taste dreadful to the delicate taste buds of a
cat. To make the transition, give bottled water at first,
slowly introducing tap water.
Cats can be poisoned by onions. Do not feed onions
to your cat, either cooked or raw. Cocoa-based products are
also risky, especially in dogs. The toxic material is the
methylxanthine derivative, theobromine, and the signs of
poisoning are vomiting diarrhea, collapse and death.
Chocolate has a much lower theobromine content of around 0.2
% but is still best avoided.
Sandy Anderson can be contacted at 70 Trevor Road, Nar Nar
Goon North, VIC 3812 Australia. Tel: 03 5942 7461. Fax: 03
5942 7509. E-mail: [email protected]
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