推 colin90149:*Origen contra Celsum, L. viii. 218.161.92.218 08/10 23:26
→ colin90149:我還是看不懂注釋 218.161.92.218 08/10 23:26
→ Geigemachen:這本書有八冊..找起來很累118.166.238.250 08/10 23:34
→ Geigemachen:我本來以為是第一冊第八章,找不到人口118.166.238.250 08/10 23:34
討論要點：
1.基督徒佔羅馬帝國的人口數的比例
要知道基督徒的人口數，羅馬帝國的人口數，得知基督徒佔羅馬帝國的人口數的比例
2.討論時間點
不同時間點，基督徒佔羅馬帝國的人口數的比例可能會不同。
我跟c大各選了兩個時間點：
(a)西元248年：俄利根寫下”駁克里索”Contra Celsum一書
(b)西元300年：戴克里先大迫害
各種不同來源的估計數據差異甚大，就我手邊找到的資料如下：
(b)西元300年：戴克里先大迫害
(i)Piero Scaruffi的羅馬年表
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/romans.html
羅馬帝國在西元300年，有總人口六千萬，一千五百萬人是基督徒，
基督徒佔總人口的25%。
300: the population of the Roman Empire is 60 million (about 15 million
Christians)
(ii)Joseph McCabe: The Story Of Religious Controversy,Chapter XVI
以下將此書簡稱[1]
各種不同來源的估計數據差異甚大。一般同意羅馬帝國人口有一億人，
（這個來源的人口數，已經和上一個來源”一億人”不相同了）
基督徒的人數估計在五百萬(吉朋)到五千萬(Staudlin)。
First of all let us make quite sure that the triumph had not been
substantially won, as ordinary believers think, and religious writers
encourage them to think, before the conversion of Constantine. How many
Christians were there in the Roman Empire in the first decade of the fourth
century? That means, remember, nearly three hundred years after the death of
Jesus, two hundred and fifty years after the supposed "immense multitude" of
Christians (fertilized by the blood of martyrs) at Rome, and two centuries
after Pliny is believed to have said that the temples were deserted in
Bithynia.
根據二世紀史家Pliny記載”小亞細亞的庇推尼(使徒行傳16:7)的寺廟荒廢”
（基督教盛行的影響）
This point is of very great importance and interest, and we are going to
study it for ourselves. One reason is that the estimate is difficult, and the
figures vary from five millions to fifty millions! It is generally agreed
that the population of the Roman Empire was at the time about one hundred
millions, and I will set out here the estimates of the number of Christians
among them that have been published by different historians who have made any
sort of calculation:
This point is of very great importance and interest, and we are going to
study it for ourselves. One reason is that the estimate is difficult, and the
figures vary from five millions to fifty millions! It is generally agreed
that the population of the Roman Empire was at the time about one hundred
millions, and I will set out here the estimates of the number of Christians
among them that have been published by different historians who have made any
sort of calculation:
Gibbon .................. 5,000,000
Friedlander ............. 5,000,000
Richter ................. 6,000,000
Zockler ................. 7,000,000
La Bastie ............... 8,000,000
Chastel ................. 8,000,000
Schultze ................ 10,000,000
Keim .................... 16,000,000
Matter .................. 20,000,000
Staudlin ................ 50,000,000
依照此份資料，基督徒比例最低約5%(Gibbon)，或是最高約50%(Staudlin)
古代的人口統計，的確是令人困擾的一個問題。
※ 引述《colin90149 (吞天之戰鬼‧狂者)》之銘言：
: ※ 引述《Geigemachen ()》之銘言：
: : 西元302-311年左右，羅馬帝國西半部人口有1/5是基督徒，東半部人口有1/2是基督徒
: 吉朋：按照奧利金無可辯駁的證據，信徒人數和未皈依的龐大人群相比起來，仍是微不
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
如你所言，這段引述我們無法確認。我找到了再討論這個論點好了。
: 足道。但是，由於沒有找到任何可信的資料，根本根本不可能肯定，甚至難以猜測早期
: 基督教徒的確實人數。不過，即使以安提阿和羅馬為例做出最高估計，很難想像在君士
: 坦丁皇帝改信基督教以前，帝國已經有二十分之一以上的人民，投身到十字架的旗幟之
: 下
: According to the irreproachable testimony of Origen,* the proportion of the
: faithful was very inconsiderable when compared with the multitude of an
: unbelieving world; but, as we are left without any distinct information, it
: is impossible to determine, and it is difficult even to conjecture, the real
: numbers of the primitive Christians. The most favourable calculation,
: however, that can be deduced from the examples of Antioch and of Rome will
: not permit us to imagine that more than a twentieth part of the subjects of
: the empire had enlisted themselves under the banner of the cross before the
: important conversion of Constantine.
: 以上
: 出自吉朋衰亡史十五章
: 既然是奧利根的說法
: 那這就算是可信的材料吧
: 雖然吉朋花了兩三個小節闡述這個論點
: 更不用說他在十六章認為龐大的殉教人數比不是自己人互桶
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※ 編輯: Geigemachen 來自: 118.166.238.250 (08/10 23:18)
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