→ tijj:能不能parallel,這些專家學者已經回答了. 05/13 13:28
→ Chengheong:Boo. 05/13 13:52
這一篇主要回應以下的看法：
http://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Eng-Class/M.1365735427.A.FAD.html
[tijj] The term 'native speaker' refers to a well-educated native speaker.
...
推 hopeliu:今天問了兩位系上教授，一位台灣元老籍，一位美國籍，都 04/12 21:24
→ hopeliu:說(A)是錯誤句，不能表示remote/tentative/hypothetical 04/12 21:25
→ hopeliu:的意思，要這樣表示就用if子句。 04/12 21:27
http://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Eng-Class/M.1366088259.A.708.html
→ tijj:當有whenever之意,if和when通常可交替代換,而又不改變原句意. 04/16 14:17
→ tijj:when要用在像if的hypothetical情況就是錯. 04/16 14:18
→ tijj:有whenever之意,if和when通常可交替代換,但這非hypothetical 04/16 14:20
→ tijj:原句A可以對,就是常被蛇咬, 但這不是r/t/h情況 04/16 14:22
→ tijj:什麼可以引出r/t/h情況,通常是 if (only), image if, or 04/16 14:25
→ tijj:suppose/supposing 而不是when! 04/16 14:26
...
→ tijj:原句A可以選,但若又要硬拉成是r/t/h情況,這就不是標準英文. 04/16 14:29
→ tijj:還有,何謂假設法?好奇中文的對應英文是指什麼? subjunctive? 04/16 14:43
→ tijj:when為何可以執行subjunctive的功能?是if可以執行subjunctive 04/16 14:43
→ tijj:的功能. 應該要加以釐清. 04/16 14:44
以上反對者的說法大致綜合、重述如下：
when/whenever 在指涉未來不確定事件時，如果句意明確，可有 if 的「條件，
conditional」語義，因此 if/when/whenever 可互換，「條件」意義不變。但是，即使
可以互換、意思不變，卻只有 if 這個字眼（或諸如 suppose, imagine 等字眼）可以和
過去式或 subjunctive 搭配使用，表達出 r/t/h 的情態，獨獨 when/whenever 這兩個
字眼，即使在和 if 同義的情況下，偏偏不得如此搭配。換句話說，誰使用了
when/whenever + r/t/h，就是錯誤、不合文法，充其量不能算作標準英語。
以上這樣重述反對觀點，沒有人反對吧？
本篇僅就實際語料之舉隅來回應。為求完整，將先前呈現過的來自書本的語料重覆一遍
，加註年份，後面再加入新的語料。少數例子雖來自網上部落格，大多儘量取自已出版書
本、論文、報章雜誌，避免反對者以「那不是英語母語者寫的，或者不是
well-educated speaker 寫的」作為口實。
以下語料，全部都是 when/whenever 兩個字眼，帶有 if 的 conditional 語義，並搭配
過去式或 subjunctive-"were" 以表達對未來未發生事件的 r/t/h 情態（為凸顯重點和
語境，我將關鍵字改為 ALL-CAP）：
（註：r/t/h 指 remoteness, tentativeness, hypotheticality）
[1] A Gentle Guide to Research Methods, Gordon Rugg, Marian Petre, 2007
What WOULD you do WHEN it CAME to writing up your results, and those results
INCLUDED unpleasant truths about a group that you had come to like? IT'S
possible to end up feeling strong social bonds with the most unlikely
sounding individuals ...
[2] Chemical Engineering Design and Analysis: An Introduction, T. Michael
Duncan, Jeffrey A. Reimer, 1998
What WOULD you do WHEN you ENCOUNTERED a new unit? But you DON'T need to
memorize operating equations. Instead, you NEED only learn how to create
tools to design and operate chemical engineering processes. Operating
equations ARE ...
[3] Essentials of Early Childhood Education, Carol Gestwicki, Jane Bertrand,
2011
Codes of Ethics
We noted earlier in the chapter that a profession has a code of ethics, which
is a statement of principle that governs moral behaviour and ethical
decisions. In Canada several professional organizations have developed code
of ethics statements for early childhood educators, to be used as a guide in
making day-to-day decisions.
Early childhood educators ARE frequently faced with ethical dilemmas in their
work with young children and their families:
‧ What WOULD you do WHEN a parent DEMANDED to know who hit her child?
‧ What WOULD you do WHEN a co-worker COMPLAINED to you about another
co-worker's treatment of a child?
‧ What WOULD you do IF a neighbour TOLD you she heard bad things about the
last centre vou worked in?
‧ What WOULD your responsibility be WHEN another teacher TOLD you that
symptoms made her suspect child abuse, but that she was afraid to report it?
Often, early childhood educators HAVE to take action in situations in which
all the facts ARE not known, or there IS no single course of action that is
clearly right or wrong. It IS sometimes difficult to decide what an ethical
response might be.
[4] http://antarabesque.wordpress.com/tag/books/ （某部落格）
Esther’s questions
1. What music DO you put on when driving?
2. What colour clothes DO you always buy?
3. What sound just “MAKES your day”?
4. What trip WOULD you like to make WHENEVER you HAD the chance?
5. Which artist INSPIRES you?
[在一系列現在情境的問題中，有一問題用 whenever you had the chance，加入 r/t/h
情態。]
[5] Keyshia and Clyde: A Novel, by Treasure E. Blue, 2008 （某言情小說）
"Think about it. You told me yourself that after all that shit happened you
changed, and Pops told me you never know when you change from a cucumber to a
pickle, and once you a pickle, you could never go back to being a cucumber."
"So you saying that I'm scarred for life and that I'm a pickle now?" asked
keyshia.
"No. I'm saying that if you stay carrying the fear and not address it, it's
a pretty good chance that you will turn into a pickle." Keyshia lay back in
silence.
Suddenly Clyde turned toward her and asked. "Baby, can I ask you a question?"
keyshia turned to face him and said, "Yeah, maybe."
He moved closer. "For real, yo, you got to be dead honest."
Keyshia knew he was serious and answered, "Yeah, but only if you answer the
same question." He nodded.
Clyde paused as if he were thinking of a way to form the question. "What IS
the biggest fear that you HAVE and ARE afraid to confront, and what WOULD you
do WHEN you finally FACED it?"
Keyshia was blown away by the depth of the question and took a moment to
think about it. Suddenly, she looked at Clyde and asked with a sneer on her
lips. "Do you really want to know?"
Clyde sat up and nodded, keyshia stared at the wall and spoke slowly and
measuredly. "I'D go down south and see the man who raped me and took my baby.
I'D ..."
[when you finally faced it? 是某人的直接問話，不經過間接引述，意指在假想世界中
面對恐懼，與現實中會不會、能不能面對無關。]
[6] Decisions and Orders of the National Labor Relations Board, 1996
Jarvis related that about a week after the above conversation with Randall
Brown, while his job assignments were being continually changed. Rock came to
him while he was working at the back end of the hacking belt, picking up 10
bricks at a time with tongs and putting them on the belt, and asked how much
longer was it going to take before he quit.
Employees Dennis Sowders, Rich Irwin, and Rich Carol, among others,
assertedly present at the time, did not testify. Jarvis answered, "WHENEVER
hell FROZE over."
[在過去敘事脈絡中，whenever hell froze over 是某人的直接回答，不經過間接引述。
]
[7] The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money, John Maynard
Keynes, 1936 （英國經濟學家凱因斯著作）
http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/keynes/general-theory/ch21.htm
It APPEARS therefore, that we HAVE a sort of asymmetry on the two sides of
the critical level above which true inflation sets in. For a contraction of
effective demand below the critical level will reduce its amount measured in
cost-units; whereas an expansion of effective demand beyond this level will
not, in general, HAVE the effect of increasing its amount in terms of
cost-units. This result follows from the assumption that the factors of
production, and in particular the workers, are disposed to resist a reduction
in their money-rewards, and that there is no corresponding motive to resist
an increase. This assumption IS, however, obviously well founded in the
facts, due to the circumstance that a change, which is not an all-round
change, is beneficial to the special factors affected when it is upward and
harmful when it is downward.
IF, on the contrary, money-wages WERE TO fall without limit WHENEVER there
WAS a tendency for less than full employment, the asymmetry WOULD, indeed,
disappear. But in that case there WOULD be no resting-place below full
employment until either the rate of interest WAS incapable of falling further
or wages were zero.
[whenever there was ... 這條件句中的 was 是 r/t/h，而非指過去發生的事實，這可
從上下文看出，凱因斯在陳述一個假設性的經濟原理，而非過去發生了什麼事。而且，這
個 whenever there was 又包夾在一個更大的條件句 if ... were to 之中，這個 were
to 是 subjunctive-"were" 代表 r/t/h。第二段全段採用 r/t/h 情態，表達高度懷疑/
假設性，和第一段以現在式提出的 asymmetry 形成對比。]
[8] 台灣光華雜誌文章《守護海洋使者──中華白海豚》
對此，周蓮香認為可以「人工放流魚種」提供白海豚食物，來彌補棲地破壞導致的魚源損
失。至於噪音問題，台大海洋工程學系教授陳琪芳估計，工業港施工期在特定範圍內的打
樁噪音將影響海豚聽力，營運時期的船舶進出等噪音可能降低白海豚發聲溝通的距離，迫
使牠們花費更多能量覓食或找尋同伴。因此施工時需在現場進行水下錄音，長期監測海豚
的出沒狀況，若有過大噪音，或有白海豚出現在受影響區域內時，將採取停工或暫停船隻
出入等減緩措施。
（中譯英）Professor Chen Chi-fang of the Department of Engineering Science
and Ocean Engineering at National Taiwan University FEELS that noise
generated by piledriving during construction of an industrial harbor could
damage the hearing of dolphins within the immediate area, and noise from
vessels entering and leaving the harbor once it was in operation would
probably shorten the radius within which the humpback dolphins can
communicate by sonar, thus forcing them to expend more energy in searching
for food or their companions. Hence it would be necessary to take underwater
sound recordings during construction and do long-term tracking of the
presence of dolphins. She SUGGESTS suspending work or temporarily halting
entry and exit of ships to and from the harbor IF noise WERE TO reach
excessive levels, or WHENEVER a dolphin SHOWED UP within the area affected by
the noise.
[這裡出現 if 和 whenever 並用。最後一句如果改寫成 whenever noise {were to
reach, reached} excessive levels, or if a dolphin showed up ...，意思也不變。
if/when/whenever + 過去式或 subjunctive r/t/h 完全可以在適當情境下互換。]
[9] Kiplinger's Personal Finance （理財雜誌）, 1994
Taxes in reverse
Just WHEN you WERE WONDERING why THERE'S so much complaining about this form,
HERE'S the kicker. If your employee's household income IS less than $23,753
in 1994 and he or she supports a child, the employee is eligible for the
advance earned income credit (EIC). EIC is basically a negative income tax.
The IRS pays the taxpayer...
[10] Knowledge and organization in the innovation process, Roberto Mazzoleni,
Stanford University Dept. of Economics, 1994
...to disregarding the uncertainties that pervade the innovation process.
Insofar as the firm's knowledge is incomplete, the focus of the firm's
attention structure will be shaped by subjective beliefs about what
information is important to seek for. Such beliefs ARE not unchanging.
Experience CAN provide new information, and induce changes in the held
representation of the environment. WHENEVER this WERE TO BE the case, the
informational sources towards which the attention structure of the firm IS
oriented WILL also change.
Spender (1989) correctly emphasizes the existence of a theory of observation
according to which the empirical evidence IS selectively monitored and
interpreted. This LEADS us into a discussion of the relevance of
imformativeness of information, which logically requires the pre-existence of
a theory.
[11] A comparative view of Christianity and of the other forms of religion
which have existed, and still exist, in the world, particularly with regard
to their moral tendency; by William Laurence Brown, 1826
It IS, therefore, to be confidently expected, that these obstructions WILL be
ultimately removed, and "the power of God and the wisdom of God," for the
present and eternal happiness of mankind, unfold their complete and beatific
energy. As these obstructions have been occasioned chiefly by human
ignorance, prejudice, or depravity, we MAY, by discovering the peculiar
manner in which these have operated, be led to ascertain the most effectual
means of curing the evil; or, if this BE impracticable in the present state
of human nature, at least of investigating its immediate causes. Only when
this glorious result SHALL BE obtained, WILL human happiness be distinctly
apprehended and firmly established. Christianity, exerting its complete moral
energy on the principles and conduct of its professors, COULD not fail,
WHENEVER this WERE the case, to improve in the highest degree the civil
condition of mankind. It WOULD, on the one hand, eradicate the first
principles of tyranny and abuse of power; and, on the other, extinguish the
spirit of sedition, tumult, and rebellion.
[12]
http://globalpoliticsblog.com/2012/11/26/the-foreign-policy-of-the-dprk-ideology-nuclear-deterrence-and-regime-survival/
2012 （某政治部落格）
What this means for foreign policy is that the manner in which states
perceive themselves, their role in the international system, as well as their
conception of the actors around them dictators [sic] their interests and
actions (Houghton, 2007, p.29). Similarly, material value of interests IS
discounted; identity and norms SHAPE your interest, for it IS these normative
ideas that connect a certain value to a given interest, threat or courses of
action. For example, increases in power by an ally ARE viewed as less
disturbing as WHEN this WERE the case with an adversary (Weldes, 1996,
p.282). An example of this WOULD be that the United States IS deeply
concerned over the nuclear ambitions of Iran, yet DOES NOT worry over the
ambiguity surrounding the nuclear program of Israel, it IS the same material
(a nuclear weapon), yet two completely different meanings ARE attached to
this based on the worldview of the United States, which flows from its
identity.
[13] http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0010079 (page 21)
Renormalization Constant of the Color Gauge Field as a Probe of Confinement,
2000, by Masud Chaichian, Kazuhiko Nishijima （某物理學論文）
This, in turn, means that such Green’s functions would be multi-valued
functions of α, Then a question is raised of whether Green’s functions
involving only BRS invariant operators be also multi-valued. WHEN this WERE
the case, c.c. MIGHT be realized only in the domain D(-infinitiy), so that
Z(subscript 3) (raised to the power of -1) = 0 WOULD represent a necessary
and sufficient condition for c.c., but it has not been clarified yet IF it
WOULD really be the case.
We may close this section by concluding that c.c. is realized in QCD provided
that color symmetry is not spontaneously broken and AF is valid.
[it has not been clarified yet if it would really be the case 完全確認了前面的
when this were the case 不是指過去情況，何況這又是 subjunctive-"were"。]
[14] Pride and Prejudice, Jane Austen, 1813 傲慢與偏見，珍·奧斯汀
Elizabeth was chiefly struck with his extraordinary deference for Lady
Catherine, and his kind intention of christening, marrying, and burying his
parishioners WHENEVER it WERE required.
（某中譯）伊麗莎白聽到他對咖苔琳夫人尊敬得那麼出奇，而且他竟那麼好心好意，隨時
替他自己教區裡的居民行洗禮，主持婚禮和喪禮，不覺大為吃驚。
[在全篇過去式的敘事脈絡中，此句使用了 subjunctive-"were"，表達 r/t/h。如果
Jane Austen 原本將 were 寫成 was （也沒錯），就看不出這 was 是純粹指過去時間
的過去式，還是 帶有 r/t/h，但這裡形式既是第三人稱單數主詞 + subjuctive-"were"
，那就無疑是 r/t/h 情態。]
[15] http://www.bartleby.com/3/1/11.html
Essays, Civil and Moral, Francis Bacon 法蘭西斯·培根 (1561–1626)
Of Great Place
MEN in great place are thrice servants: servants of the sovereign or state;
servants of fame; and servants of business. So as they have no freedom;
neither in their persons, nor in their actions, nor in their times. It is a
strange desire, to seek power and to lose liberty: or to seek power over
others and to lose power over a man’s self. The rising unto place is
laborious; and by pains men come to greater pains; and it is sometimes base;
and by indignities men come to dignities. The standing IS slippery, and the
regress IS either a downfall, or at least an eclipse, which IS a melancholy
thing. Cum non sis qui fueris, non esse cur velis vivere [When a man FEELS
that he IS no longer what he was, he HAS no reason to live longer]. Nay,
retire men CANNOT WHEN they WOULD, neither WILL they WHEN it WERE reason; but
ARE impatient of privateness, even in age and sickness, which require the
shadow; like old townsmen, that will be still sitting at their street door,
though thereby they offer age to scorn.
[這裡有大陸版中譯：http://www.en8848.com.cn/read/proseessay/life/132363.html
關鍵句意思：人們在願意退休時不能退，在應該退休時也不肯退。整句、整段脈絡明顯是
假設一種境況，而非過去發生過的事實。句中 when they would 的 would 是一般動詞
will （願意、意欲）的過去式，表 r/t/h，when it were reason 的 were 又是一個
第三人稱單數主詞 + subjunctive-"were"，也是 r/t/h。]
[16] The Southwestern Reporter, Volume 65, 1902
BURGESS, J. This is an appeal by defendant from a conviction and sentence of
death passed upon her on a charge by Indictment of having feloniously
administered to her husband, Frank Nesenhener. a large quantity of a certain
deadly poison, called "morphine," from the effects of which he died. Several
points are urged for a reversal of the Judgment, but, from the view that we
take of the case, it will only be necessary to pass upon one, as it goes to
the very foundation of the Judgment; that is, the want of substantial
evidence to support it, in the absence of which it cannot be permitted to
stand.
In Wills, Circ. Ev. (3d London Ed.) 205, it is said: "UPON GENERAL
PRINCIPLES, however, it CANNOT be doubted that courts of law WOULD require
chemical evidence of poisoning, WHENEVER it WERE attainable; and in that case
it WOULD seem but reasonable, in analogy to the general rules of evidence,
that it SHOULD be of the highest character which the nature of the case
admits. At least, a conviction CANNOT be satisfactory if it BE grounded upon
evidence of an inferior nature, where evidence of a more satisfactory
character IS capable of being adduced." It cannot be doubted but that in case
of morphine poisoning the most satisfactory and convincing evidence of
poisoning is the discovery by analysis of the contents of the stomach, the
existence of morphine, or traces of it. and. in case of uraemic poison, by an
analysis of the urine. In Wills, Circ. Ev. 388 (by Arthur P. Wills), it is
said: "Evidence of chemical tests applied to the body or its contents or
excreta, WHENEVER it IS capable of being obtained, ought to be adduced; and
in such circumstances the failure to adduce such evidence, unexplained by a
satisfactory reasons, GIVES serious ground for doubt as to the reality of the
alleged poisoning. The reagents employed must be free from all impurities, if
any importance IS to be attached to the result obtained." In the case in hand
there was no examination of any kind made either of the stomach, or its
contents, bowels, or urine, while there was no apparent reason why one or
both should not have been done; and these matters, so important to the
ascertainment of the cause of tbe death of the deceased, are entirely
wanting. On the symptoms, and these alone, with the exception of a few
suspicious acts upon the part of the accused, the judgment of conviction
rests.
[第二段，Southwestern Reporter 兩次引用的 Wills 著作 Circumstantial Evidence，
大約是 1870 年後的出版物。第一次引文出現 would ... whenever it were attainable
，第二次引文出現 whenever it is capable of being obtained，兩者完全同義，都
在陳述「法律應該根據具體證據來作判決」這個歷時不變的原則，並非第一次指過去發生
的事，第二次指未來的可能性。這又是一個代表 r/t/h 的 subjunctive-"were"。]
以上實例，語域範圍從言情小說、口語對話到專業領域、嚴肅論述皆有之，而且後者居多
，這應該足以顯示 when/whenever + r/t/h 不是那種僅限低下階層那種阿貓阿狗的口語
（可被「攻擊」為文法鬆散隨便）的用法吧。
If, suppose, imagine 等字眼才可以 r/t/h，但 when/whenever 在和 if 同義可互換時
，卻偏偏不能有 r/t/h？這想法本身，光是說出來給人聽，或用常理想想，就已顯得疑點
重重，更別說沒有理論基礎了。
以上這些作者，難道他們發表的這些句子都是不標準的英語，甚至是不合文法的英語？還
是反對者對英語少見多怪、採取自由心證、一副「想當然耳」的姿態，無視真實世界母語
作家寫出來的英語，光憑「語感」自創和現實脫節的「英語規則」？各位想想何者比較有
可能？
試問：你對英語的語感、理解、掌握，難道好過 Bacon、Keynes、Austen 等作家？
回答：That will/would be the case if/when/whenever hell freezes/froze over or
if/when/whenever pigs fly/flew!
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