推 sitifan: 05/14 18:17
推 hopeliu:好奇如果是英系學者，怎麼看待原先的語境？ 05/17 23:54
※ 編輯: tijj 來自: 146.115.61.107 (05/18 00:53)
※ 引述《l10nel (小失)》之銘言：
: 這一篇主要回應以下的看法：
: http://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Eng-Class/M.1365735427.A.FAD.html
: [tijj] The term 'native speaker' refers to a well-educated native speaker.
: ...
: 推 hopeliu:今天問了兩位系上教授，一位台灣元老籍，一位美國籍，都 04/12 21:24
: → hopeliu:說(A)是錯誤句，不能表示remote/tentative/hypothetical 04/12 21:25
: → hopeliu:的意思，要這樣表示就用if子句。 04/12 21:27
: http://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Eng-Class/M.1366088259.A.708.html
: → tijj:當有whenever之意,if和when通常可交替代換,而又不改變原句意. 04/16 14:17
: → tijj:when要用在像if的hypothetical情況就是錯. 04/16 14:18
: → tijj:有whenever之意,if和when通常可交替代換,但這非hypothetical 04/16 14:20
: → tijj:原句A可以對,就是常被蛇咬, 但這不是r/t/h情況 04/16 14:22
: → tijj:什麼可以引出r/t/h情況,通常是 if (only), image if, or 04/16 14:25
: → tijj:suppose/supposing 而不是when! 04/16 14:26
: ...
: → tijj:原句A可以選,但若又要硬拉成是r/t/h情況,這就不是標準英文. 04/16 14:29
: → tijj:還有,何謂假設法?好奇中文的對應英文是指什麼? subjunctive? 04/16 14:43
: → tijj:when為何可以執行subjunctive的功能?是if可以執行subjunctive 04/16 14:43
: → tijj:的功能. 應該要加以釐清. 04/16 14:44
: 以上反對者的說法大致綜合、重述如下：
: when/whenever 在指涉未來不確定事件時，如果句意明確，可有 if 的「條件，
我說:"有whenever之意,if和when通常可交替代換"
: conditional」語義，因此 if/when/whenever 可互換，「條件」意義不變。但是，即使
: 可以互換、意思不變，卻只有 if 這個字眼（或諸如 suppose, imagine 等字眼）可以和
我說: "什麼可以引出r/t/h情況,通常是 if (only), image if, or..."
^^^^^^
我沒有說"只有if", 我說"通常是if..."
: 過去式或 subjunctive 搭配使用，表達出 r/t/h 的情態，獨獨 when/whenever 這兩個
: 字眼，即使在和 if 同義的情況下，偏偏不得如此搭配。換句話說，誰使用了
: when/whenever + r/t/h，就是錯誤、不合文法，充其量不能算作標準英語。
我說:"原句A可以選,但若又要硬拉成是r/t/h情況,這就不是標準英文."
我講的對象是在講A句 "What would you do when you were bitten by a snake?"
: 以上這樣重述反對觀點，沒有人反對吧？
我反對耶,我覺得我寫得很清楚了,不太需要幫我重述.
: 本篇僅就實際語料之舉隅來回應。為求完整，將先前呈現過的來自書本的語料重覆一遍
: ，加註年份，後面再加入新的語料。少數例子雖來自網上部落格，大多儘量取自已出版書
: 本、論文、報章雜誌，避免反對者以「那不是英語母語者寫的，或者不是
: well-educated speaker 寫的」作為口實。
: 以下語料，全部都是 when/whenever 兩個字眼，帶有 if 的 conditional 語義，並搭配
: 過去式或 subjunctive-"were" 以表達對未來未發生事件的 r/t/h 情態（為凸顯重點和
: 語境，我將關鍵字改為 ALL-CAP）：
: （註：r/t/h 指 remoteness, tentativeness, hypotheticality）
: [1] A Gentle Guide to Research Methods, Gordon Rugg, Marian Petre, 2007
: What WOULD you do WHEN it CAME to writing up your results, and those results
: INCLUDED unpleasant truths about a group that you had come to like? IT'S
: possible to end up feeling strong social bonds with the most unlikely
: sounding individuals ...
: [2] Chemical Engineering Design and Analysis: An Introduction, T. Michael
: Duncan, Jeffrey A. Reimer, 1998
: What WOULD you do WHEN you ENCOUNTERED a new unit? But you DON'T need to
: memorize operating equations. Instead, you NEED only learn how to create
: tools to design and operate chemical engineering processes. Operating
: equations ARE ...
: [3] Essentials of Early Childhood Education, Carol Gestwicki, Jane Bertrand,
: 2011
: Codes of Ethics
: We noted earlier in the chapter that a profession has a code of ethics, which
: is a statement of principle that governs moral behaviour and ethical
: decisions. In Canada several professional organizations have developed code
: of ethics statements for early childhood educators, to be used as a guide in
: making day-to-day decisions.
: Early childhood educators ARE frequently faced with ethical dilemmas in their
: work with young children and their families:
: ‧ What WOULD you do WHEN a parent DEMANDED to know who hit her child?
: ‧ What WOULD you do WHEN a co-worker COMPLAINED to you about another
: co-worker's treatment of a child?
: ‧ What WOULD you do IF a neighbour TOLD you she heard bad things about the
: last centre vou worked in?
: ‧ What WOULD your responsibility be WHEN another teacher TOLD you that
: symptoms made her suspect child abuse, but that she was afraid to report it?
: Often, early childhood educators HAVE to take action in situations in which
: all the facts ARE not known, or there IS no single course of action that is
: clearly right or wrong. It IS sometimes difficult to decide what an ethical
: response might be.
: [4] http://antarabesque.wordpress.com/tag/books/ （某部落格）
: Esther’s questions
: 1. What music DO you put on when driving?
: 2. What colour clothes DO you always buy?
: 3. What sound just “MAKES your day”?
: 4. What trip WOULD you like to make WHENEVER you HAD the chance?
: 5. Which artist INSPIRES you?
: [在一系列現在情境的問題中，有一問題用 whenever you had the chance，加入 r/t/h
: 情態。]
: [5] Keyshia and Clyde: A Novel, by Treasure E. Blue, 2008 （某言情小說）
: "Think about it. You told me yourself that after all that shit happened you
: changed, and Pops told me you never know when you change from a cucumber to a
: pickle, and once you a pickle, you could never go back to being a cucumber."
: "So you saying that I'm scarred for life and that I'm a pickle now?" asked
: keyshia.
: "No. I'm saying that if you stay carrying the fear and not address it, it's
: a pretty good chance that you will turn into a pickle." Keyshia lay back in
: silence.
: Suddenly Clyde turned toward her and asked. "Baby, can I ask you a question?"
: keyshia turned to face him and said, "Yeah, maybe."
: He moved closer. "For real, yo, you got to be dead honest."
: Keyshia knew he was serious and answered, "Yeah, but only if you answer the
: same question." He nodded.
: Clyde paused as if he were thinking of a way to form the question. "What IS
: the biggest fear that you HAVE and ARE afraid to confront, and what WOULD you
: do WHEN you finally FACED it?"
: Keyshia was blown away by the depth of the question and took a moment to
: think about it. Suddenly, she looked at Clyde and asked with a sneer on her
: lips. "Do you really want to know?"
: Clyde sat up and nodded, keyshia stared at the wall and spoke slowly and
: measuredly. "I'D go down south and see the man who raped me and took my baby.
: I'D ..."
: [when you finally faced it? 是某人的直接問話，不經過間接引述，意指在假想世界中
: 面對恐懼，與現實中會不會、能不能面對無關。]
: [6] Decisions and Orders of the National Labor Relations Board, 1996
: Jarvis related that about a week after the above conversation with Randall
: Brown, while his job assignments were being continually changed. Rock came to
: him while he was working at the back end of the hacking belt, picking up 10
: bricks at a time with tongs and putting them on the belt, and asked how much
: longer was it going to take before he quit.
: Employees Dennis Sowders, Rich Irwin, and Rich Carol, among others,
: assertedly present at the time, did not testify. Jarvis answered, "WHENEVER
: hell FROZE over."
: [在過去敘事脈絡中，whenever hell froze over 是某人的直接回答，不經過間接引述。
: ]
: [7] The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money, John Maynard
: Keynes, 1936 （英國經濟學家凱因斯著作）
: http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/keynes/general-theory/ch21.htm
: It APPEARS therefore, that we HAVE a sort of asymmetry on the two sides of
: the critical level above which true inflation sets in. For a contraction of
: effective demand below the critical level will reduce its amount measured in
: cost-units; whereas an expansion of effective demand beyond this level will
: not, in general, HAVE the effect of increasing its amount in terms of
: cost-units. This result follows from the assumption that the factors of
: production, and in particular the workers, are disposed to resist a reduction
: in their money-rewards, and that there is no corresponding motive to resist
: an increase. This assumption IS, however, obviously well founded in the
: facts, due to the circumstance that a change, which is not an all-round
: change, is beneficial to the special factors affected when it is upward and
: harmful when it is downward.
: IF, on the contrary, money-wages WERE TO fall without limit WHENEVER there
: WAS a tendency for less than full employment, the asymmetry WOULD, indeed,
: disappear. But in that case there WOULD be no resting-place below full
: employment until either the rate of interest WAS incapable of falling further
: or wages were zero.
: [whenever there was ... 這條件句中的 was 是 r/t/h，而非指過去發生的事實，這可
: 從上下文看出，凱因斯在陳述一個假設性的經濟原理，而非過去發生了什麼事。而且，這
: 個 whenever there was 又包夾在一個更大的條件句 if ... were to 之中，這個 were
: to 是 subjunctive-"were" 代表 r/t/h。第二段全段採用 r/t/h 情態，表達高度懷疑/
: 假設性，和第一段以現在式提出的 asymmetry 形成對比。]
: [8] 台灣光華雜誌文章《守護海洋使者──中華白海豚》
: 對此，周蓮香認為可以「人工放流魚種」提供白海豚食物，來彌補棲地破壞導致的魚源損
: 失。至於噪音問題，台大海洋工程學系教授陳琪芳估計，工業港施工期在特定範圍內的打
: 樁噪音將影響海豚聽力，營運時期的船舶進出等噪音可能降低白海豚發聲溝通的距離，迫
: 使牠們花費更多能量覓食或找尋同伴。因此施工時需在現場進行水下錄音，長期監測海豚
: 的出沒狀況，若有過大噪音，或有白海豚出現在受影響區域內時，將採取停工或暫停船隻
: 出入等減緩措施。
: （中譯英）Professor Chen Chi-fang of the Department of Engineering Science
: and Ocean Engineering at National Taiwan University FEELS that noise
: generated by piledriving during construction of an industrial harbor could
: damage the hearing of dolphins within the immediate area, and noise from
: vessels entering and leaving the harbor once it was in operation would
: probably shorten the radius within which the humpback dolphins can
: communicate by sonar, thus forcing them to expend more energy in searching
: for food or their companions. Hence it would be necessary to take underwater
: sound recordings during construction and do long-term tracking of the
: presence of dolphins. She SUGGESTS suspending work or temporarily halting
: entry and exit of ships to and from the harbor IF noise WERE TO reach
: excessive levels, or WHENEVER a dolphin SHOWED UP within the area affected by
: the noise.
: [這裡出現 if 和 whenever 並用。最後一句如果改寫成 whenever noise {were to
: reach, reached} excessive levels, or if a dolphin showed up ...，意思也不變。
: if/when/whenever + 過去式或 subjunctive r/t/h 完全可以在適當情境下互換。]
: [9] Kiplinger's Personal Finance （理財雜誌）, 1994
: Taxes in reverse
: Just WHEN you WERE WONDERING why THERE'S so much complaining about this form,
: HERE'S the kicker. If your employee's household income IS less than $23,753
: in 1994 and he or she supports a child, the employee is eligible for the
: advance earned income credit (EIC). EIC is basically a negative income tax.
: The IRS pays the taxpayer...
: [10] Knowledge and organization in the innovation process, Roberto Mazzoleni,
: Stanford University Dept. of Economics, 1994
: ...to disregarding the uncertainties that pervade the innovation process.
: Insofar as the firm's knowledge is incomplete, the focus of the firm's
: attention structure will be shaped by subjective beliefs about what
: information is important to seek for. Such beliefs ARE not unchanging.
: Experience CAN provide new information, and induce changes in the held
: representation of the environment. WHENEVER this WERE TO BE the case, the
: informational sources towards which the attention structure of the firm IS
: oriented WILL also change.
: Spender (1989) correctly emphasizes the existence of a theory of observation
: according to which the empirical evidence IS selectively monitored and
: interpreted. This LEADS us into a discussion of the relevance of
: imformativeness of information, which logically requires the pre-existence of
: a theory.
: [11] A comparative view of Christianity and of the other forms of religion
: which have existed, and still exist, in the world, particularly with regard
: to their moral tendency; by William Laurence Brown, 1826
: It IS, therefore, to be confidently expected, that these obstructions WILL be
: ultimately removed, and "the power of God and the wisdom of God," for the
: present and eternal happiness of mankind, unfold their complete and beatific
: energy. As these obstructions have been occasioned chiefly by human
: ignorance, prejudice, or depravity, we MAY, by discovering the peculiar
: manner in which these have operated, be led to ascertain the most effectual
: means of curing the evil; or, if this BE impracticable in the present state
: of human nature, at least of investigating its immediate causes. Only when
: this glorious result SHALL BE obtained, WILL human happiness be distinctly
: apprehended and firmly established. Christianity, exerting its complete moral
: energy on the principles and conduct of its professors, COULD not fail,
: WHENEVER this WERE the case, to improve in the highest degree the civil
: condition of mankind. It WOULD, on the one hand, eradicate the first
: principles of tyranny and abuse of power; and, on the other, extinguish the
: spirit of sedition, tumult, and rebellion.
: [12]
: http://globalpoliticsblog.com/2012/11/26/the-foreign-policy-of-the-dprk-ideology-nuclear-deterrence-and-regime-survival/
: 2012 （某政治部落格）
: What this means for foreign policy is that the manner in which states
: perceive themselves, their role in the international system, as well as their
: conception of the actors around them dictators [sic] their interests and
: actions (Houghton, 2007, p.29). Similarly, material value of interests IS
: discounted; identity and norms SHAPE your interest, for it IS these normative
: ideas that connect a certain value to a given interest, threat or courses of
: action. For example, increases in power by an ally ARE viewed as less
: disturbing as WHEN this WERE the case with an adversary (Weldes, 1996,
: p.282). An example of this WOULD be that the United States IS deeply
: concerned over the nuclear ambitions of Iran, yet DOES NOT worry over the
: ambiguity surrounding the nuclear program of Israel, it IS the same material
: (a nuclear weapon), yet two completely different meanings ARE attached to
: this based on the worldview of the United States, which flows from its
: identity.
: [13] http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0010079 (page 21)
: Renormalization Constant of the Color Gauge Field as a Probe of Confinement,
: 2000, by Masud Chaichian, Kazuhiko Nishijima （某物理學論文）
: This, in turn, means that such Green’s functions would be multi-valued
: functions of α, Then a question is raised of whether Green’s functions
: involving only BRS invariant operators be also multi-valued. WHEN this WERE
: the case, c.c. MIGHT be realized only in the domain D(-infinitiy), so that
: Z(subscript 3) (raised to the power of -1) = 0 WOULD represent a necessary
: and sufficient condition for c.c., but it has not been clarified yet IF it
: WOULD really be the case.
: We may close this section by concluding that c.c. is realized in QCD provided
: that color symmetry is not spontaneously broken and AF is valid.
: [it has not been clarified yet if it would really be the case 完全確認了前面的
: when this were the case 不是指過去情況，何況這又是 subjunctive-"were"。]
: [14] Pride and Prejudice, Jane Austen, 1813 傲慢與偏見，珍·奧斯汀
: Elizabeth was chiefly struck with his extraordinary deference for Lady
: Catherine, and his kind intention of christening, marrying, and burying his
: parishioners WHENEVER it WERE required.
: （某中譯）伊麗莎白聽到他對咖苔琳夫人尊敬得那麼出奇，而且他竟那麼好心好意，隨時
: 替他自己教區裡的居民行洗禮，主持婚禮和喪禮，不覺大為吃驚。
: [在全篇過去式的敘事脈絡中，此句使用了 subjunctive-"were"，表達 r/t/h。如果
: Jane Austen 原本將 were 寫成 was （也沒錯），就看不出這 was 是純粹指過去時間
: 的過去式，還是 帶有 r/t/h，但這裡形式既是第三人稱單數主詞 + subjuctive-"were"
: ，那就無疑是 r/t/h 情態。]
: [15] http://www.bartleby.com/3/1/11.html
: Essays, Civil and Moral, Francis Bacon 法蘭西斯·培根 (1561–1626)
: Of Great Place
: MEN in great place are thrice servants: servants of the sovereign or state;
: servants of fame; and servants of business. So as they have no freedom;
: neither in their persons, nor in their actions, nor in their times. It is a
: strange desire, to seek power and to lose liberty: or to seek power over
: others and to lose power over a man’s self. The rising unto place is
: laborious; and by pains men come to greater pains; and it is sometimes base;
: and by indignities men come to dignities. The standing IS slippery, and the
: regress IS either a downfall, or at least an eclipse, which IS a melancholy
: thing. Cum non sis qui fueris, non esse cur velis vivere [When a man FEELS
: that he IS no longer what he was, he HAS no reason to live longer]. Nay,
: retire men CANNOT WHEN they WOULD, neither WILL they WHEN it WERE reason; but
: ARE impatient of privateness, even in age and sickness, which require the
: shadow; like old townsmen, that will be still sitting at their street door,
: though thereby they offer age to scorn.
: [這裡有大陸版中譯：http://www.en8848.com.cn/read/proseessay/life/132363.html
: 關鍵句意思：人們在願意退休時不能退，在應該退休時也不肯退。整句、整段脈絡明顯是
: 假設一種境況，而非過去發生過的事實。句中 when they would 的 would 是一般動詞
: will （願意、意欲）的過去式，表 r/t/h，when it were reason 的 were 又是一個
: 第三人稱單數主詞 + subjunctive-"were"，也是 r/t/h。]
: [16] The Southwestern Reporter, Volume 65, 1902
: BURGESS, J. This is an appeal by defendant from a conviction and sentence of
: death passed upon her on a charge by Indictment of having feloniously
: administered to her husband, Frank Nesenhener. a large quantity of a certain
: deadly poison, called "morphine," from the effects of which he died. Several
: points are urged for a reversal of the Judgment, but, from the view that we
: take of the case, it will only be necessary to pass upon one, as it goes to
: the very foundation of the Judgment; that is, the want of substantial
: evidence to support it, in the absence of which it cannot be permitted to
: stand.
: In Wills, Circ. Ev. (3d London Ed.) 205, it is said: "UPON GENERAL
: PRINCIPLES, however, it CANNOT be doubted that courts of law WOULD require
: chemical evidence of poisoning, WHENEVER it WERE attainable; and in that case
: it WOULD seem but reasonable, in analogy to the general rules of evidence,
: that it SHOULD be of the highest character which the nature of the case
: admits. At least, a conviction CANNOT be satisfactory if it BE grounded upon
: evidence of an inferior nature, where evidence of a more satisfactory
: character IS capable of being adduced." It cannot be doubted but that in case
: of morphine poisoning the most satisfactory and convincing evidence of
: poisoning is the discovery by analysis of the contents of the stomach, the
: existence of morphine, or traces of it. and. in case of uraemic poison, by an
: analysis of the urine. In Wills, Circ. Ev. 388 (by Arthur P. Wills), it is
: said: "Evidence of chemical tests applied to the body or its contents or
: excreta, WHENEVER it IS capable of being obtained, ought to be adduced; and
: in such circumstances the failure to adduce such evidence, unexplained by a
: satisfactory reasons, GIVES serious ground for doubt as to the reality of the
: alleged poisoning. The reagents employed must be free from all impurities, if
: any importance IS to be attached to the result obtained." In the case in hand
: there was no examination of any kind made either of the stomach, or its
: contents, bowels, or urine, while there was no apparent reason why one or
: both should not have been done; and these matters, so important to the
: ascertainment of the cause of tbe death of the deceased, are entirely
: wanting. On the symptoms, and these alone, with the exception of a few
: suspicious acts upon the part of the accused, the judgment of conviction
: rests.
: [第二段，Southwestern Reporter 兩次引用的 Wills 著作 Circumstantial Evidence，
: 大約是 1870 年後的出版物。第一次引文出現 would ... whenever it were attainable
: ，第二次引文出現 whenever it is capable of being obtained，兩者完全同義，都
: 在陳述「法律應該根據具體證據來作判決」這個歷時不變的原則，並非第一次指過去發生
: 的事，第二次指未來的可能性。這又是一個代表 r/t/h 的 subjunctive-"were"。]
先聲明,我並沒有一一檢查,縱使你的句子全對如你理解的那樣
[1]~[16]甚至及其它句子,到底何時可以parallel蛇咬句,何時不行,
可以去虛心請教師長們, 我相信必會有所收穫.
: 以上實例，語域範圍從言情小說、口語對話到專業領域、嚴肅論述皆有之，而且後者居多
: ，這應該足以顯示 when/whenever + r/t/h 不是那種僅限低下階層那種阿貓阿狗的口語
: （可被「攻擊」為文法鬆散隨便）的用法吧。
沒有任何人說這樣就是"那種阿貓阿狗的口語", 這是你自己說得.
: If, suppose, imagine 等字眼才可以 r/t/h，但 when/whenever 在和 if 同義可互換時
: ，卻偏偏不能有 r/t/h？這想法本身，光是說出來給人聽，或用常理想想，就已顯得疑點
: 重重，更別說沒有理論基礎了。
我已經說了, 我沒說有: "If, suppose, imagine 等字眼『才』可以"
: 以上這些作者，難道他們發表的這些句子都是不標準的英語，甚至是不合文法的英語？還
: 是反對者對英語少見多怪、採取自由心證、一副「想當然耳」的姿態，無視真實世界母語
: 作家寫出來的英語，光憑「語感」自創和現實脫節的「英語規則」？各位想想何者比較有
: 可能？
: 試問：你對英語的語感、理解、掌握，難道好過 Bacon、Keynes、Austen 等作家？
我贊同這句.
所以才該更請教師長們,而不是一直自我解譯,而不是未經確認,就擅自引用文法書
來背書自己的語境.
http://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Eng-Class/M.1367499526.A.030.html
多位專家學者與文法作者都說你的說法是ungrammatical了
: 回答：That will/would be the case if/when/whenever hell freezes/froze over or
: if/when/whenever pigs fly/flew!
※ 編輯: tijj 來自: 146.115.61.107 (05/13 16:45)