[情報] Goose Gossage vs. Mariano Rivera

[abc12812 ()]

http://tinyurl.com/b3mqo4d

Goose Gossage is 61, which I guess is old enough to turn the Hall of Fame
relief pitcher into a grumpy old man, or at least a grumpy middle-aged man.
Over the weekend, Gossage told Newsday that Mariano Rivera is certainly
great, BUT ...

    "I think that these guys are so dominant in that one-inning role that
they've forgotten what we used to do," the former Yankees closer said. "It
takes three guys to do what we used to do."

Joe Posnaski followed up with a blog post that, well, ripped the Goose a
pretty good one. I do agree with what Joe wrote here:

    The obvious reason is that it diminishes Goose Gossage to talk this way.
Goose Gossage was a great pitcher. A truly great pitcher. Gossage is in the
Hall of Fame, he's widely remembered, he does not need to go around telling
people how great he was or how he wasn't used the way pitchers today are
used. I think it cheapens him to do so, especially when he uses the beloved
Mariano Rivera for effect. Rivera has been gracious and classy and
respectful. Gossage shouldn't use him as a prop.



Posnanski then goes into a lengthy discussion of the careers of the two
relievers and why Rivera is the greatest relief pitcher ever:

    OK, do you see? Rivera was better. A lot better. He was better in cold
numbers, and he was a lot better when you take into consideration the eras
when they pitched. For Rivera to match Gossage in the basic numbers, he would
have had to pitch 278 more innings -- all those multiple innings that Gossage
pitched -- and he would have to allow 201 more (a tidy 6.51 ERA). He would
have had to walk 350 or so batters in those innings, while allowing 42 home
runs. And he would have had to do all that in a much lower scoring run
environment. I'm guessing here, of course, but I think he could have managed
it.



What I'm wondering, however, is whether that's a fair approach. Tack on a lot
of bad innings so you can see how much better Rivera was than Gossage. I
don't think it's that simple, for several reasons.

First off, it is easier to pitch one inning at a time than the multiple
innings Gossage did, especially early in his career when he had years of
141.2, 133 and 134.1 innings in relief. I don't think anybody really disputes
that. One reason we see so many dominant relief seasons now is because it's
easier to get three outs than five or six or nine. Rivera isn't the only
reliever over the past two decades to post huge numbers; he's just done it
longer than everybody else.

Now, as Posnanski points out, Gossage certainly remembers those three big
seasons of his -- but Goose had just one other 100-inning season in his
career. Posnanski also points out that Gossage's ERA in one-inning relief
appearances in his career wasn't that great (3.75), although I'm guessing
many of those came in the last several years of his career, when he wasn't
the same dominant reliever he had been from 1975 to 1985. Let alone that some
came after he may have pitched three innings the day before.

I think Joe is short-changing Gossage's workload just a bit, even if he did
only have those three super seasons (with one mediocre season as a starter
thrown in). If we rank the most relief innings each pitcher had in a season,
it would go like this:

Gossage
Gossage
Gossage
Rivera
Gossage
Gossage
Gossage
Gossage
Gossage
Rivera
Gossage

Those are all their seasons with at least 80 innings (not counting Gossage's
year as a starter). Rivera had two; Gossage had eight, including six of at
least 90 innings, something Rivera did just once, as a setup guy in 1996.

What we don't know is how dominant Gossage would have been if he'd had
Rivera's workload. He had a career 2.77 ERA as a reliever (Rivera's is 2.05
in, as Posnanski also points out, a higher-scoring era). But isn't it likely
Gossage would have been more dominant pitching in one-inning stints? That
maybe he would have remained great into his late 30s instead of declining in
his mid-30s if he hadn't had such a heavy workload early in his career?

And likewise, we don't know what would have happened to Rivera if had come up
in 1975 instead of 1995. Maybe he burns out after a few years, unable to
handle those 130-inning seasons. Maybe he's great for a decade and then, like
Gossage, slowly peters out. Ultimately, it's a question that can't be
answered, just like we don't know what would have happened had Rivera been
moved back as a starter at some point.

Look, is Rivera the greatest relief pitcher of all time? I do believe he is.
He's been so good for so long -- not to mention his postseason record (0.70
ERA in 141 innings) -- that it's hard to make any other argument. But
comparing relief pitchers across generations is even more difficult than
other positions.

I don't think Gossage is entirely off base, however. Even if he is a cranky
middle-aged guy who played in an era where one of the major issues was
complaining about beer being removed from the clubhouse after games.

--
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◆ From: 140.112.25.133
推 WadeMiley:MLB板鄉民英文真的都滿不錯的呢
推 lukehong:還過得去啦
→ lef1986:拉下來發現沒譯文，嗯，abcPO的
推 ARODisGod:翻譯:阿就名人堂對決啊
推 leddy:Posnanski在Rivera拿600 save時就用這點戰過closer了...
推 s955346: 這一篇還算滿簡單的吧?
→ NIKE74731:看到這種通篇英文的通常都直接跳過 我來MLB板可不是來練
→ NIKE74731:英文的
→ MarcLin:老實說，你不看是你家的事情阿 XD
推 pcshjuju:同意樓上
推 summitstudio:又要禁國內新聞又不看英文，那來這裡到底在幹嘛xD
推 beareyes:我會跳過文章，但會看他說什麼，有時候很有趣XD
→ KusoPvt:先看abc的註解再看文章才有趣XDD
推 joanzkow:如果沒有人翻，看不懂的就認命吧，這就是MLB版
→ joanzkow:說真的啦，英文淺顯簡單看得懂是個好問題
→ joanzkow:但有很多人習慣看中文文章
→ joanzkow:我下班後辛苦的要命，上個PTT輕鬆一下還要我看通篇英文
→ joanzkow:這到底合不合理啊~
→ joanzkow:對很多人來說，就是這麼回事
推 ZMTL:你可以不要看，沒人壓在電腦前逼你看
推 cheuky:我下班辛苦的要命，上個ptt輕鬆一下還要我通篇翻成中文給
推 maxspeed150:推樓上
→ ZMTL:我也都跳過本文看推文啊，不過我不覺得有什麼問題
→ maxspeed150:那麼愛翻譯的話就來吧
→ maxspeed150:Gossage是可以投很多局的CL 所以雖然帳面數字不如Mo
→ cheuky:一些只懂要求，亂噓一通不懂感激的人，當我的時間不是時間?
→ maxspeed150:他們兩個誰強還是很難判斷
→ maxspeed150:因為時代不同 CL要做的事也不同
→ maxspeed150:作者最後是說他覺得Mo比較強 但是也承認比較不同時代
→ maxspeed150:的CL很困難
→ Sparksfly:翻譯並不是件容易的事情 有,且珍惜 沒有,也別責難
推 lukehong:要輕鬆歡樂PTT上還有很多選擇吧
推 Walden:看不懂英文請滾去棒球版 那邊比較適合你們
→ Sparksfly:少在那邊搞沒意義的對立 話不是這樣講的
推 lukehong:沒有什麼滾不滾的 就算沒有翻譯 推文也會有人簡略翻
→ lukehong:翻譯本來就不是板友的義務吧
→ lukehong:真的有心想看想了解想討論 也不會有太大的障礙吧
→ chordate:楊天發:不爽不要看
→ A508529:少一篇文章不看又不會怎樣  PTT一天幾萬篇文章
→ A508529:某人你的全都要一一掃過看過嗎
推 mp39999:某人第一句話算引戰嗎XD
→ mp39999:我下班辛苦的要命,上個ptt輕鬆一下還要我看某尻通篇推文:(
→ usausausa:某尻習慣 PO LIVE文~~~~~沒LIVE可搶後只好嗆人
推 Yukirin:看到Gossage起手式就是要站CL角色的轉變跟局數啊 連這個前
→ Yukirin:題都不知道的話其實因為是英文所以不想看跳過也沒關係吧
→ starcry:憑甚麼叫人滾?
噓 Inferihell:Z尻根本酸葡萄 不懂還要吵
→ cena0605:好兇喔 要別人滾
→ sneak: 你可以不要看，沒人壓在 https://daxiv.com