[心得] 關於PvZ後期目前的狀況

[kira925 (1 2 3 4 疾風炭)]

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375971

(這是一篇TL論壇的文章 不過我覺得寫的還不錯 所以就貼過來）

要戰自由之翼平衡的自己去開別篇 這篇都是在說蟲群之心

In its current state, the late game still revolves around a single spell:
Vortex. Whether or not the Protoss or Zerg wins is completely dependent upon
whether or not a strong Vortex is executed. It's so significant that a player
with a large lead in map control, economy, and upgrades can be completely
obliterated by the other if only one Vortex does or does not go in their
favor. This is a problem - it stagnates the matchup, forces turtling-style
games and certain unit compositions, and makes games able to be decided on
one moment rather than the culmination of good or bad play by either side.
Because of this, I think it should be removed, and a lot of other things
should be changed to make the late-game less swingy.

目前來說，PvZ的後期全部都圍繞在一個法術:黑洞。神族或者蟲族在後期的
勝負幾乎可說是完全決定在黑洞技能施放的成功或失敗。他的影響巨大到不
管玩家擁有多好的地圖控制、經濟領先、科技升級，都可能因為黑洞施放的
成敗而完全逆轉。這是個問題：這讓遊戲緩慢下來，而且鼓勵選手慫起來搞
無敵組合，並且讓遊戲在十秒鐘之內決定一切勝負，而不是根據之前雙方所
累積的各種決定對錯。因此，我想這個技能應該被移除，而且有很多的事情
應該被修改來撼動目前的後期PvZ。

Why is Vortex so critical for Protoss? (hint: It's all about the air!)

====為什麼黑洞對神族這麼重要====

Vortex gives the Protoss the one thing it is severely lacking otherwise in
either available units or in tech options: Anti-mass air. It is the only
weapon Protoss has that can cost-effectively combat extremely heavy numbers
of Zerg air units and can effectively punish them for overproducing them.
Sure, Protoss has a lot of stuff that can do damage to air - Blink Stalkers,
Psionic Storm, Archons, and Stargate units. However, when taking into account
other factors, these are very weak options when all factors are considered.
Let me go through each below:

黑洞彌補了神族在對空上非常重要的一個缺陷：對於海量空軍的無力。
這是神族唯一的交換比極高，可以反制鉅量蟲族空軍單位並且可以有效
懲罰蟲族只造空軍的法術。當然，你可以說神族有很多可以對空的武器：
閃追/心靈風暴/白球還有星際之門的單位。但是，把其他的因素考慮進去
以後，你會發現這些都是相當無力的對空反制。

以下是我的論述：

Stalkers

Stalkers are one of the lowest DPS-per-supply and DPS-per-cost units in the
game. While mobile, they are extremely inefficient. ItWhoSpeaks did a
wonderful write-up about this concept in his thread here:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794032960 . Let's compare them to
marines and the new HotS Hydra as well:

追獵在這個遊戲裏面是擁有每人口最低DPS與成本/DPS比最高的單位之一。
雖然擁有良好的機動性，他們是非常沒有輸出效率的。ItWhoSpeaks在他的
文章裏面有很好的論述：

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794032960

我們把他跟槍兵還有HoTS的蛇蛇來做個比較吧：

Marine: 7 DPS, 10.5 DPS (Stimmed), 1 Supply, 7/10.5 DPS per supply

陸戰隊:7/10.5 DPS（打針前/後) 1人口 7/10.5(DPS/人口)

Hydralisk: 14.5 DPS, 2 Supply, 7.25 DPS per supply

蛇蛇: 14.5DPS 2人口 7.25(DPS/人口)

Stalker: 6.9 DPS, 9.8 vs Armored, 2 Supply, 3.45 or 5.4 DPS per supply

追獵 6.9/9.8DPS(輕/重甲) 2人口 3.45/5.4(DPS/人口)

Yikes! The Stalker not only does the least Anti-air damage out of all of
these, but also costs the most. This illustrates why Marines in large numbers
can cut down a flock of Mutas or a pack of Brood Lords at a much faster clip
than their Protoss counterparts. It also shows why very heavy mass Mutalisk
or Corruptor/BL can overwhelm a Protoss player, even if they make lots of
blink Stalkers in response to it – the Stalkers simply don’t kill the air
units fast enough. Let's move on to option 2, Archons.

你看看！追獵擁有最低的對空傷害，而且還是最貴的。這很清楚的說明了
為什麼陸戰海起來可以把飛龍或者少量的寄生王蟲用遠比神族對應單位更
快的速度解決掉。這同時也說明了為什麼海量的飛龍或者是腐飛/大龍可以
輕鬆的把神族玩家搞死，即使他們造了更海量的閃追回應:追獵就是不給力。

我們改來看看白球好了

Archons

The unit of choice for use in conjunction with Vortex, Archons aren't
powerful because of their damage so much as their splash (believe it or not,
against a biological target, Archons do 20 DPS, or 5 damage per supply -
meaning it would take more time for an Archon to kill a biological target
one-on-one than two stimmed marines would the same target!).

這個與黑洞擁有最適搭配的神族單位，其實並不是真的那麼威武：

從 DPS/人口 觀點來看 白球對生化的DPS是20 也就是每人口 DPS 5

在不考慮擴散傷害下 ，白球打死一個生化單位的速度還比兩個打針後的槍兵慢！

However, Archons are limited by the fact that they are on the ground, and
must go past anything (terrain or other enemy units) in their way to get to
the air units they're after. They also have a worker unit speed rather than
fast. This means they must have Colossus support to gnaw through broodlings
and roaches to get at Brood Lords, and that Corruptors can simply fly away
from them and not get hurt because they're faster. So, independent of Vortex,
they're really not that great of an option, and with Vortex, they're too good
of one.

而且，白球還有一個限制是白球身為地面單位的問題：要對空勢必要貼上去（
不管友軍還是敵軍) 才能夠打到敵方的空軍單位。白球本身的速度並不快，
這意味著你必須要有巨像的支援才能衝過那堆小蟲子/蟑螂 才能摸到寄生王蟲本體，
而且腐飛可以很輕鬆的飛過白球頭頂，而且不會受到太多傷害：他們飛的比較快。
換句話說：如果沒有黑洞 白球並不是個好選擇，但是搭配了黑洞與擴散傷害效果
一級棒。

Next, let's look at Psi Storm.

接著，我們來看心靈風暴

Psionic Storm

Psionic Storm is one of the stronger weapons in the Protoss arsenal because
it can punish poor positioning and clumping by opponents. This is why it's
such a great anti-Viking tool in PvT and can defeat very marine-heavy armies
as well.

閃電是神族兵器庫裏面的最強武器之一，因為他可以對於位置不佳與擠成一團
的對手單位給予重傷害，這就是為什麼他是PvT反制維京的重要武器，並且可以
對於非常倚重陸戰隊的兵力組成給予重傷害。

However, its effect is substantially diminished by units that are fast or
have very high amounts of health because they can either "tank" multiple
storms before dying or simply dodge them. Zerg air units all have one or both
of these aspects. Mutalisks are very quick, making Storm tough to use on them
(there's no guarantee of a certain amount of damage being done), and Brood
Lords take a lot of punishment before being brought down. Corruptors are both
beefy (with a whopping 100 health per supply) and fast (as fast or faster
than every Protoss unit except Phoenixes and upgraded Warp Prisms). They're
such an extreme case that I'm going to address them on their own later on in
this post.

但是，對於快速移動或者是擁有高血量的單位就顯的有點像是蚊子叮：在被電死之前
他們早就閃掉或者是他們根本就不怕閃電。蟲族的空軍單位都擁有這些重要的特色：
飛龍跑的快/大龍根本就電不動/腐飛更是電不動也電不到。接下來我會針對這些特色
做更深入的討論：

Before that, let's wrap up with Stargate tech.

但在那隻前 我們先來檢討神族空軍科技吧

Stargate Tech

Stargate tech is admittedly one of the more underwhelming and less effective
tech paths for Protoss, and HotS has seen a lot of focus in making it more
viable. However, even with the addition of the Tempest, it still needs a lot
of work because the fact remains that the units are still very lackluster
when it comes to anti-air and still suffer great vulnerabilities against both
races. I'm going to focus on each unit against Zerg right now.

神族的空軍科技線是目前最被輕視跟殺傷效率最低的科技線，HoTS看來是投注了
很多心力在讓他更好。但是，就算加上了"會飛行的受感染人類"，他看來還是需要
不少功夫，因為在空對空上面依然是非常疲弱不振，而且依然有著一樣的弱點。
不過，在這邊我只會針對PvZ的情況做檢討：

Phoenix - Okay in small numbers versus Mutalisks, poor versus everything
else. Their bonus is versus Light, which makes them clearly anti-Mutalisk
intended, yet they are a poor option versus large numbers of Mutalisks. Every
other Zerg air unit is Armored, so that further hurts their effectiveness.
Last, if you get too many of them, you've committed too much of your supply
to something that can't shoot ground and you can get easily punished for that
later.

鳳凰：簡而言之就是出小數量來打飛龍很划算 但是打其他東西都沒用。本身是
對輕甲攻擊家成，因此讓他變成反飛龍的專家，但是對到海量飛龍還是不怎樣。
其他的蟲族空軍都是重甲，這讓鳳凰的傷害輸出更加可悲。最後，如果你出了
太多這個不能對地的單位，你會因此而被輕易的擊敗。


Void Ray - This unit has gone from what was once a scary, powerful, massable
unit into a slow, clunky, costly, very situational one. You can use it to
fend off roach rushes or do an all-in, but that's about it. It's awful versus
Corruptors, Mutalisks and Infestors which makes them pretty naked when going
after Brood Lords at the back of an army.

虛空：這是一個被寫信哥從強力、威嚇、可以海量作為主力暗黑成緩慢、昂貴、
笨重的非常受限制單位。你可以拿來反制蟑螂Rush/打一波，不過也就大概這樣而已。
對腐飛/飛龍/感染都效果不佳讓他變成非常無力的單位 想要強點大龍更是有如裸奔
一般找死。

Carrier - They're insanely expensive in both cost and supply, slow to make,
and slow your army down by being so sluggish. The fact that they're so slow
makes them vulnerable to being targeted down by Corruptors. In addition, the
fact that they are not as microable as they once were and that they cannot
stay safe while using their range to focus down targets makes them weak as
well. For those of you who haven't seen it yet, check out Liquid`NonY's video
about Carrier micro:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369313

航母： 靠悲貴 不管是人口還是資源耗費，造起來靠悲慢，而且把你的主力部隊搞得
毫無機動性。他們緩慢的天性讓他很容易被腐飛狙擊，而且與一代航母比起來操作性
降低更是讓他無法在一個安全範圍外掩護自己的弱點。有興趣的可以去看LiquidNonY
的影片解說：

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369313


Tempest - This is the one that I want to suggest the most changes to because
it's a new unit and therefore has the biggest chance of making an impact. In
its current state, though, even with the fleet beacon requirement removed,
it's still pitiful in its effect. As it is, it's supposed to be either a
mid-game harrassment unit or a late game anti-Massive unit. It's not great at
either of these roles for a lot of the same reasons a Carrier isn't - it's
big, slow, vulnerable, and expensive, and does poor damage against anything
other than Brood Lords. Even then, they're easily overwhelmed or flanked by
small forces of anti-air units.

暴風： 這就是我希望做出最多變更的單位，因為這是一個新單位 所以有比較大的機會
可以對目前的遊戲造成衝擊。目前來說，雖然不需要艦隊導航台就可以生產，但是還是
一個非常無用的單位：中期的搔擾單位，或者是後期的反巨型單位。目前這兩個目標暴
風都做的不好，跟航母一樣不行：肥大、緩慢、脆弱、昂貴，而且更糟的是對於大龍以外
的單位根本沒有DPS可言。而且就算這樣，有一小波對空單位從側翼突襲就可以毀滅暴風
艦隊。

The Corruptor - It's a "Massive" problem

腐飛：這是個"巨型"的問題

One reason that Corruptor spam is such a huge problem in late-game PvZ is
that every single important late-game unit Protoss has that doesn't come out
of a Gateway is one that can not only be targeted by Corruptors, and is
slower than Corruptors, but they also get the bonus damage dealt to them from
being Massive. Think about it - Mothership, Carrier, Tempest, Colossus, all
of those are Massive and vulnerable to air. This means that they can be
massed without consequence and thrown at a Protoss army and, if not Vortexed,
kill all of the important units. It's not like Terran where too many Vikings
become a liability, though, or like Protoss with too many Phoenixes - you can
then morph them into Brood Lords, so that tech switches to ground-heavy
forces don't become something you need to consider when thinking about how
many Corruptors to make.

一個讓海量腐飛在 PvZ 後期難以解決的原因是每個神族的重要後期單位，只要不是BG
出來的通通都是腐飛可以輕易狙擊的目標，而且都比腐飛移動的慢，雪上加霜的是還
都因為是巨型所以腐飛對他有加成傷害。仔細想一想:聖母/航母/暴風/巨像 通通都是
巨型單位而且對空脆弱。這意味著你可以無後顧之憂的海腐飛，而且沒有被黑洞的情況
下可以直接衝進神族主力裏面大殺特殺。這跟人族造太多維京或者神族造太多鳳凰是
不一樣的：你等等你可以把腐飛變成大龍，所以你並沒有掩護地面困難的問題。

How to Fix It, Tempest Style

怎麼解決

There's been a lot said on these boards about the strength of Gateway units
being too low, and I completely agree with those points. However, it seems
like changing those units isn't really something the design team wants to do
right now. Instead of that, I'd like to advocate for some changes to the
Tempest (and one to the HT) to help it play a bigger role and help us move
away from Vortex-or-die PvZ while having minimal impact on PvT.

TL論壇關於BG單位的強度太弱已經夠多了，而且我也認同這些論點。不過這看來並不是
開發團隊目前想要去調整的對象，因此，我想要說說針對暴風的改進(以及HT)來讓暴風
成為更重要的角色並且遠離一個黑洞定生死的PvZ 同時對PvT的影響降低:

Change #1 - Implement a separate Air-to-Air attack with Splash damage
This would both give Protoss the much-needed ability to punish clumping air
units without Vortex and discourage deathball-style play by making armies
spread out to engage each other.

#1 給暴風一個對空AOE。 這讓神族有懲罰團成一團的空軍除了黑洞以外的選擇，
並且降低死亡之球式的玩法 讓單位們可以拉開成為一個戰線。

Change #2 - Make the Corruptor Massive and/or Lower its Health Pool
As it stands now, there's little reason to get the Fleet Beacon upgrade for
the Tempest, because the other options to deal with Brood Lords are better.
Having the Corruptor be Massive would give the Tempest more punch where it
needs it while still making them vulnerable to groups of smaller anti-air
units. Lowering their health makes sense because of their low cost and high
armor and would allow them to get punished by flying over a bunch of
Stalkers.

#2 讓腐飛成為巨型單位且/或降低他的血量。 目前來說，在VF升級暴風對巨型單位的
加成傷害並不吸引因為其他的反大龍選項看來更好。讓腐飛成為巨型單位可以讓暴風
有用武之地，但是讓暴風依叫對於小型的防空單位脆弱。降低血量是合理的，因為
相對於腐飛的低資源與高防，這讓他們不敢肆無忌憚的飛過一團追獵上面。

Change #3 - Psionic Storm does extra damage versus Massive

#3 閃電對巨型有加成傷害

I think this would be a great one for all matchups. This, combined with the
Corruptor changes above, would now make it so that Brood Lords and Corruptors
can't bathe in Storms while going about their merry broodling-blasting ways.
It would also add some much-needed variability to the PvP late-game matchup -
no longer would you have hordes of Colossi or Carrier deathballs slamming
into one another, but now keeping track of each others Templar, critical
feedbacking of one another, and positioning an army becomes much more
important.

我個人認為這對所有的組合都有良好的促進。跟前面的改變配合起來，這會讓大龍腐飛
不能再承受閃電的攻擊，並且在PvP的後期加入些不同的變化：不用繼續會戰滿天光束
或者航母對打，而是必須去狙擊閃電，互相拼操作反潰，並且良好的陣型跟開戰地點會
變得更重要

-----
大家參考看看? 有些論點很有趣

--
長久以來，我們將許多地方，與許多時刻視為理所當然。
我們對這個理所當然很冷淡，所以理所當然，終於忍受不了悲傷，逃走消失了。
失去之後，我們才重新注意到，這理所當然。
然而今後，也還會有很多的理所當然，漸漸的消失吧。

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 140.113.28.197
推 mioaria:有翻譯有推!!!
推 same60710:Z的大後期真的是很IMBA啊....
推 capssan:PvT後期有解在來討論這個 P還有萬用三不朽好嗎
→ kira925:這篇其實是目向HoTS 要戰WoL去別篇
推 sd4752:P平A過太爽 打後期就哭IMBA 不是叫T L2P嗎
→ mioaria:...人家明明在討論PVZ 偏偏有人就是要提PVT LOL
→ same60710:ZVT難道就不IMBA嗎...
推 Coshower:解決方法看起來是不錯  不知道百生會不會造成啥影響XD
→ mioaria:不過閃電對於巨型有加成 感覺有點IMBA耶 這樣雷獸也會被剋
推 capssan:T後期問題大多了都不討論 P就這麼想要前中後期都爽爽贏...
→ FANggot:推kira 要戰WoL有整版的文章給你戰
推 GianniC:P已經夠imba了還強化  那要不要把讓巨像的血少一半
→ kira925:你是玩過HoTS了歐....
→ mioaria:你要討論PVT 請另開別篇阿 幹嘛一定要來這邊討論哩
→ GianniC:還是射程要到3本才能研發...
→ FANggot:這篇只是在講HoTS解決黑洞對雙方都太過重要的方法
→ Coshower:閃電對雷獸這種體積大跑又快的應該不致於影響多大吧
→ kira925:正確來說 現在WoL就是這樣 但是HoTS目前問題依舊
推 kullan:PvZ後期還真的很難解啊
→ mioaria:問題是雷獸會打狂戰,一定會停下來 還有狗可以順便電下去
推 haoboo:巨象射程本來就是三本阿....有什麼問題嗎
→ kira925:所以這篇作者其實都是在說暴風怎麼改可能可以解決問題
→ mioaria:P怎樣都賺阿XDD
噓 a82:有人到現在還假裝不知道Z比P強大
→ GianniC:蟲族要怎麼解決巨像  沒有大龍只能靠腐飛
推 a524528:現在問題就在少了黑洞P該加強啥，現在這種打法真的不好看
→ mioaria:沒記錯他好像是Z玩家喔? 記錯抱歉
※ 編輯: kira925         來自: 140.113.28.197       (10/17 18:07)
→ GianniC:再把腐飛搞弱  那是不是只有到三本才有解...
推 FANggot:這篇文章是在想要如何平衡的移除黑洞. 最近黑洞還看不膩?
→ a82:現在高階Z 不會那麼弱  把應擠成一團
→ FANggot:看膩了就不要急著戰Imba
→ GianniC:也許把大龍搞弱一點  但是不應該把矛頭對準腐飛...
推 et310:Timba
→ mioaria:可是移除黑洞,只靠暴風,太勉強了 除非又有新單位...
→ mioaria:就算給暴風對空AOE好了 那造價那速度根本不夠力
→ kira925:其實還好 暴風出個5~6台 25人口內還算合理吧
→ mioaria:AOE距離也是個問題阿 絕對不遠的...
→ mioaria:這樣就跟他原本定位衝突了
推 chungchuck:追獵有蟑螂虛胖?
→ kira925:如果以這篇的計算法 差不多虛胖...
推 battleleader:本來就不該有無敵的情形出現了 說P有很多機會可以捅
→ kira925:蟑螂是 4 (DPS/人口）
推 std94003:這篇文章是說要移除黑洞 增加可看性 就要做一些平衡改變
→ battleleader:穿Z...沒看過龍狗 或莽夫打P嗎  前中期又不是只有P強
噓 VirgilDu:只會說P IMBA的人實在是認不清遊戲
→ VirgilDu:中肯文  寫得好
→ battleleader:我怎麼記得DRG好幾場沒用到無敵就贏了 還解3不朽
推 signm:這樣閃電會太強大不太可能..我覺得比較需要改造的是航母
推 SuperJGL:前幾天WCS sen被3不朽打爆不是一堆人喊P應爸
→ signm:暴風艦麻煩移除吧..根本無用改造航母就好
推 a524528:航母改了也沒用，一樣被感染定死，還要考慮越過感染打
→ kira925:航母會比暴風難改非常多 因為一個小改動DPS會暴增或暴減
推 Coshower:改基本兵都不太可能 尤其追獵這種帳面弱 但特定情形又太
→ SuperJGL:航母小飛機不會被定就很有得打了
→ signm:以前的航母是可以甩的..可以靠操作閃的
→ Coshower:強的 要改只能把躍傳拔掉再加強 XD
→ kira925:那Z就會被航母屠到屍橫遍野.....
→ Coshower:給虛空新增後期VF研發技能好了  虛空裂光波(?)
→ kira925:閃電我覺得還好 其實整篇來說我只覺得讓腐飛變巨型就好
推 battleleader:至少要先把地刺拔起來換家改掉  不然P連靠機動性的
→ battleleader:機會都沒有
→ signm:Z不會到這麼悲劇吧...航母是3階兵種成型要很久
→ kira925:加上VF的技能加成 暴風其實比想像中給力很多
推 Coshower:不知道感染之後會不會削弱 XD 最好感染閃電一起削弱
→ kira925:重點是你要有巨型可以打....
推 signm:暴風艦定位一直很尷尬不覺得嗎?何時出都感覺不太對
推 a524528:暴風是要改變PVP憋巨象大戰的，但是因為射程DPS又超低
→ kira925:BZ想把Tempest做成巨型殺手阿....
→ kira925:我很在意的是他們什麼時候會想到虛空的定位
推 Esca:如果只准討論蟲心的話，這裡是有多少人有蟲心beta?XD
→ kira925:你可以去關注蟲心的直播 TL不少
→ kira925:而且還不乏歐美的職業選手在打
推 mioaria:虛空 我不知道多久沒出了打槍兵打不過 打媽媽也...
推 yechu2003:中肯文  專業分析就是不一樣
推 a524528:虛空最大的缺點就是他要過去應點會被其他單位點掉
→ kira925:我覺得有個方向是把流體葉片加回來 跟鳳凰組突襲小隊
推 ctx705f:原來kira也是113?
推 mioaria:加回來就變成團戰無敵 之前是因為團戰才移除的不是嗎?
→ kira925:當初的理由就很鬼扯蛋阿 哪有人用團戰修平衡的
→ mioaria:都是寫信哥的錯!!! 哪有人這樣的拉 翻桌
推 david10ne:講得很好啊 PVZ現在都龜30分 2把黑洞10秒定生死
→ david10ne:但是黑洞拿掉PVZ後期根本無解 所以就是得大改的地方了
推 kendiablo:閃電對巨型加成比較好,杜絕PVP巨像戰
→ kira925:目前來說 還沒看到有人在PvP出暴風反巨像...
→ kendiablo:SC2的PVZ真的比SC1難看許多,憋一坨定生死
→ kira925:而且因為科技線不一樣 我是很好奇有沒有可能VS跟VR大亂鬥
→ kendiablo:回歸騷擾擴張戰吧,憋一波真的很容易膩
推 a524528:有P都難看阿，因為躍傳使P只能一波
→ kira925:其實以前還算好看的 但是自從無敵組合橫空出世
→ FANggot:VR都不對空 跟VS可能打不起來XDDDD
→ kira925:黑洞毀滅PvZ以後就變很難看
→ FANggot:不過我也想看不同科技線也有得打得比賽
→ kendiablo:暴風艦改AOE千萬不要,他機動性太差,本質還是一波
→ kira925:我也不想看暴風AOE....
推 pinsomnia:SEn表示
推 BigBird110:真的推閃電對巨型+傷害
推 CaTkinGG:腐化變巨型 那Z就只能靠飛莽+蛇蛇打暴風艦了
→ kira925:我目前的想法是腐飛跟感染其中之一不削弱不行
→ kira925:不然只要有大龍掩護地面 腐飛跟真菌掩護空中 P就沒得打
推 peterfood:追獵對空加攻擊
→ kira925:那不行的 維京會毫無生路
推 haoboo:拔掉重甲加成 改成對空加成
→ SuperJGL:拔掉重甲是要拿命擋莽夫嗎
推 Sutan:拔掉重甲加成會變成連蟑螂都打不動XD
推 haoboo:反正現在擋莽夫也都靠立場跟不朽了...
推 Infernity:PVZ大後期越來越胡扯了 憋全家 各種猥瑣 蟲心不改不行
→ FAlin:PVZ互龜大後期比4BG對A還難看
推 problem5566:同意這篇
→ problem5566:黑洞才是萬惡淵源 但是要有其他配套
→ kira925:其實黑洞是不可為而為之…
推 Adonisy:槍兵可以廢了妹子讓 dps 變低，但閃追怎麼廢他的技能？
推 motai:就是有無腦的Tuser 不管別人在講什麼就只會講Pimba
推 justeat:大龍那爛到爆的機動性 腐飛對地0支援 缺點這麼明顯的單位
→ justeat:還要削弱阿？
推 miha80425:我同意P空軍定位很糟 但要動BG兵? 你是嫌一波比賽不夠多
→ miha80425:嗎 要讓航母BUFF可以 要還Z自殺蟲 T的大和也要加強
→ miha80425:講到真菌  我個人認為最初版本 定久DPS下降或許可行
→ yogoyogo2006:現在航母要buff到甚麼程度才會有人出阿
→ yogoyogo2006:還有大合在HOTS就BUFF過了..
→ yogoyogo2006:而且Z有自殺  T要先哭吧= =
推 kendiablo:閃電對巨型加成才是好辦法,閃電現刷沒魔,不會馬上就1波
→ kendiablo:多的閃電又可以拿去打多線空投,增加變化
推 battleleader:大龍跟腐飛剛好互補阿  +上感染 = 無敵
→ nm89:大龍+腐飛+感染 樓上知道這些兵種要憋出來需要多少瓦斯嗎?
→ battleleader:還有機動爛有差嗎  是沒看過一堆地刺藏在大龍底下喔.
→ kendiablo:SC2過分強調兵種克制,才會造成一坨,不敢分兵,沒多線
→ battleleader:正常打到後期不都出的來  你插一堆地刺P也不敢衝
→ kira925:只加強閃電我怕HT電不到大龍………
→ kira925:大龍的射程比閃電長(考慮leash range)
推 kendiablo:電不到大龍我倒是不擔心,這就跟SC1空投電坦克是一樣的
→ kendiablo:加上大龍團聚,放出個2把有電到都賺
推 Zeroyeu:說後期不過也就20分鐘，現在撐不到後期的Z幾乎沒有了~
→ wtao:說實話 大龍不是飛螳 超男電...冏
推 peterfood:改成閃電可以疊加
推 kendiablo:閃電疊加不可能...
→ kira925:問題不是大龍 要用空投的的話會被腐飛抓走
→ kira925:還是需要有個可以強行破口讓閃電有辦法發揮的單位
推 a524528:閃電疊加你把人族砍了比較快
→ ugj862000:閃電疊加還不如把人口上限改成300(((好像沒關聯
→ ugj862000:我覺得現在只能開發航母的使用方法了，就像當初很多單位
→ ugj862000:定位也都不明，後來也才有用途
推 a524528:航母已經被擊落那麼多次了，近期就3次了
推 jumboicecube:現在的航母有開發的空間嗎？(苦笑)
→ jumboicecube:蟲心也沒改leash range的問題
推 ugj862000:真的是只能苦笑 不過還是要硬著頭皮開發吧 只能這樣了
→ kira925:現在的情況就是要航母當肉阿....
推 signm:航母只是有沒要改的問題而已本文影片已經有提到現在航母問提
推 wtao:重甲 又巨型 沒DPS 建造比戰巡久  真的很難XDD
→ signm:現在的小飛機攻擊模式不知道算不算是BUG.他不會更換攻擊目標
→ signm:而且無法甩..完全無法操作
→ kira925:很久之前Hero就有一次被逼到出航母 完全無法打
→ signm:閃電假如改成這樣會變很怪..一各魔法單位可以把三階兵擊退
→ kira925:從那一刻開始我就絕望了 PvZ後期真的剩賭一槍黑洞
→ kira925:閃電是三階兵阿
→ signm:造價跟產出會不符合比例..閃電會變很強
→ miha80425:看來看去沒一個可行的  或許該給鳳凰一個研發技能
→ kira925:很久很久以前 鳳凰有個過載技能是AOE
→ kira925:但是打腐飛沒用吧(沒用過不知道)
→ miha80425:要砍黑洞  那鳳凰給個像冰凍的技能 對空 或許可行
→ kira925:那種IMBA的技能不會放在鳳凰這種高產能單位上的....
→ miha80425:鳳凰的AOE那個太IMBA 空軍全吃了
→ miha80425:能量125  單體 這樣? 一直扯一代030....
推 maoimaoi21:我覺得很明顯問題出在P的空軍阿
→ maoimaoi21:TZ不管打打哪族，都一定會出天空中的兵種
→ maoimaoi21:相較之下P的空軍出場率遠低於TZ，這就值得去討論+修改
推 crubby:作者廢話一堆 真要改的只有VS線 BGVRVC都有他的平衡在
→ crubby:舉追獵的更是好笑 不是所有兵種只看性價比還要看泛用性
推 para123:HotS玩了一陣子心得：除非虐菜不然根本沒看過風暴鑑，甚至
→ para123:忘了他的存在…
→ ojo32:為什麼我覺得還好，而且算DPS沒考慮血量
→ kira925:他的意思是這些低落的DPS導致P對空其實很無力
→ kira925:特別是對付腐飛大龍這些重甲單位
推 paul087011:前面說的都很棒  最後面的解決方式有點不敢苟同
→ paul087011:閃電已經是克制低階兵的恐怖單位了  還讓它對巨型加成
→ paul087011:改腐飛也很爛  腐飛就是因為"只能對空"才有那個強度
→ paul087011:以現在的腐飛來講  Z都還嫌他對空不夠強不喜歡用勒
→ paul087011:Z出腐飛幾乎都是為了跳大龍才出的  多的才拿來防空
→ paul087011:再改弱腐飛就真的完全只是過渡兵種了
噓 VirgilDu:應該加強追獵並NERF閃線