[情報] SS腦補德軍第二TD線

[sunshinefish (羽織)]

以下節錄SS的文章:
只翻些重點，閒話家常和一些歷史就不翻了 :P

網址:http://ftr.wot-news.com/2013/08/08/german-assault-gun-branch/#more-1518

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There are two basic essential problems with German AG branch: depression, and
gun choices. Depression is obvious –

most of the “derp guns”, just like some of their Soviet counterparts, were
designed to fulfill the artillery role, with good elevation, but bad
depression. That rules out a whole bunch of designs, which is a problem. This
becomes even worse on high tiers, but there are still some vehicles, that
would fit.

新的德國TD線在選車時有兩個基本的大問題:
1. 俯角不夠。
   因為像基本上這些大口徑砲都是設計成自走砲，所以仰角很棒可是俯角就爛透了。
   基本上這個問題就刷掉一堆能夠選擇的設計案了，尤其是選高階車的時候更嚴重，不
   過還是有足夠的車可以塞滿整條 TD 線。


The second problem is worse. Basically, what you have is 70-ish mm howitzers
for tier 2-3, then you have the 105mm L/28 howitzer (and its modifications) for tier 4-5, the 150mm StuH 43 for
tiers 6 (maybe 7) and then there’s a huge gap, behind which are the real
beasts, such as the French 210mm Beutemörser (captured mortar). This gap is
found between tiers 7 and 8 as you can see, but again, it’s not something
that cannot be overcome.

2. 砲的選擇問題。
   基本上 T2-T3 會用口徑 70mm 左右的榴砲，T4-T5 用 105mm 的 L/28 榴砲，T6(或
   T7) 的 StuH 43 有 150mm，後面的口徑就突然一飛衝天，像是擄獲的 210mm
   法國迫砲。(這口徑是自走砲等級了吧...)
   這個突然的口徑差距會出現在 T7 或 T8，而且沒辦法解決。

Overall, the characteristics of the branch would be: massive (for their
level) HE-based guns with HEAT shells as their premium rounds, slow firing,
inaccurate, but very high alpha. Lower tiers in general would be quite
fragile, but from tier 6 onwards we have some pretty well armored vehicles and while
not as durable as the heavy tanks of their tiers, these TD’s can take some
real punishment. Of course, the speed in general won’t be stellar, but
(apart from the biggest monsters) not that bad either.

基本上這支新的 TD 線會有幾個特性:
與同階車比起來很嚇人的HE砲(金彈會是HEAT)，砲的裝填很慢又打不準，不過傷害很高。
低階車基本上有點脆弱，不過從 T6 開始會變得比較硬可以硬扛傷害，但是比不過同階的
重坦。
機動性不是頂好，不過也不會太差。(除了最大隻的那幾輛以外)

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What I am thinking, the whole line could look like this:

我在想新的 TD 線可能會有這些車:

Tier 2 – Krupp LSK SPG

An SPG project from 1928, when Krupp Essen took a light LSK artillery tractor
and armed it with a 75mm LeIG howitzer. The prototype was ready in 1930 and
in 1931, the gun itself was added to the front of the vehicle. The only
protection for the crew was a small gun shield. The vehicle weighted 8,9 tons
and was tested from 1931 to 1933, but its terrain passability characteristics
were bad, it was slow and completely unprotected. Therefore, the program was
cancelled around 1934.

As you can see, it’s a first step. Very fragile vehicle, but it has all the
things it needs, including some traverse and possibly depresion. Don’t worry,
it gets better.


T2 Krupp LSK SPG
http://ftr.wot-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/LSK.jpg

一輛輕型的開頂履帶自走砲，配有 75mm LeIG 榴炮，車重 8~9 噸，地形適性很差跑的也
很慢。

我們可以看出這是一輛很脆弱的車，不過它會有堪用的迴轉速度，可能還會有些俯角。

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Tier 3 – SdKfz 165/1

Here it gets a bit more complicated. For tier 3, we need some sort of 105mm
howitzer, but we can’t really have any Grille mutation (0 depression) and
certain one-time conversions, because they were simply that – one time.
What we need is something with a 105mm gun, but low protection and mediocre
mobility, possibly with a turret, which can be “tweaked” by reducing the
turret turn rate, so the vehicle doesn’t become OP.

SdKfz 165/1 is the Krupp first take on the (later named) Heuschrecke concept
of mobile SPG. The design was started in 1941 and the vehicle was to use as
many available suspension/hull parts as possible. In the end, the Panzer IV
chassis was selected – it was shortened by one roadwheel (it’s NOT a Panzer
III chassis, but a shortened Panzer IV hull), with an open-topped turret with
a 105mm FH 18 howitzer installed.
The gun had excellent elevation (40) and depression (-10) angles and the whole
17 ton vehicle was powered by a 180hp Maybach engine, allowing it theoretically
to reach 45 km/h (but I am pretty sure this would be nerfed in the game).
The armor was very, very thin – 20mm in the front and 14,5mm on the sides. 8
prototypes were made and they were even tested in combat on the eastern front.
While the test results were not bad, in the end, the Wespe was selected to be
the Germany’s 105mm mobile SPG, mostly because it was easier to build (it used
only slightly modified Panzer II hull, while the SdKfz 165/1 was quite
manhour-requiring to build).

As you can see, this could somehow work. The gun is not OP, the armor is
non-existent and the vehicle is open-topped.
Its mobility and turnrate could be tweaked for best results.

T3 SdKfz 165/1
由於需要一輛有 105mm 口徑砲但是薄裝甲、機動普普(可能有轉得頗慢的砲塔)的車子，
但我們又不能只是直接把 Grille 改一改放到TD線，所以就挑了這輛車。

SdKfz 165/1 是以改短過的 Pz. IV底盤(路輪少了一個)加上一個開頂的砲塔和 105mm
FH 18 榴砲組成的，砲的俯仰角為(-10/+40)。
車重17噸並且會裝上一個 180hp 的 Maybach 引擎，理論上極速可以達到 45km/h，不過
在遊戲當中可能沒那麼高。
裝甲非常薄(前 20mm / 側 14.5mm)。

我們可以看出這可能行得通。砲不會太 OP，裝甲可以當作不存在而且是開頂車輛，機動
性則應該會調整到最佳的結果。

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Tier 4 – Feldhaubitze FH 18/40 auf GW III/IV (Sfl)

At first I was thinking to use the classic Heuschrecke 10 here, but that
thing has 0 depression, so it won’t do.

We’ll go with the Rheinmetall prototype instead then.

In 1942, Rheinmetall proposed a SPG, that was to be the competition for Krupp
’s Heuschrecke 10. It was again a 105mm howitzer, placed in a fully
traverseable turret, but this time, the Panzer III/IV hull was used (the same
hull that was used for the Hummel and Nashorn – there’s a possibility of a
“bridge” from/to the 2nd German TD line here). The vehicle’s main feature
would be the very comfortable -10 depression. Both the frontal armor of the
hull and of the turret was 30mm (some sources state 20mm), so it’s a bit of
an upgrade from the T3, the hull sides were 20mm thick and the sides of the
turret were 10mm thick. One prototype was made in 1942, but – just like with
the other Heuschrecke vehicles – it never made it past the prototype stage
and the whole program was eventually cancelled in favour of the Wespe.

The vehicle weighted cca 25 tons and was powered by a 300hp Maybach 120 TRM
engine. That means it’s relatively mobile (maximum speed 42 km/h).
Could be a nice, yet fragile, T4 tank destroyer.


T4 Feldhaubitze FH 18/40 auf GW III/IV (Sfl)
http://ftr.wot-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/t4.jpg

我本來想把經典的 Heuschrecke 10 放在這，不過因為它沒有俯角所以不會放在裡面。
我們還是用 Rheinmetall 原型車(Heuschrecke 10 的競爭開發案)好了。

Rheinmetall 原型車一樣有 105mm 榴砲加上 360度砲塔，不過這次車體是用 Pz.
III/IV 的車體(有可能這輛車會是從德國第二條

TD 線跨到中坦線或是從中坦線跨過來的橋梁)。
主砲會有 -10 的俯角，前裝甲與砲塔前裝甲都有 30mm (有的來源指出是 20mm)，車側為
 20mm 而砲塔側則是 10mm ，所以基本上算是 T3 的強化版。

車重大約 25 噸，配有 300hp 的 Maybach 120 TRM 引擎，機動性應該會相當好(極速
 42 km/h)。
簡而言之這是輛很棒不過很軟的 T4 TD。

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Tier 5 – StuH 42

This one’s a no brainer and it’s widely known, so there’s no need to
describe it even further (after all, in one of its configurations, it’s
already in the game). This is basically the StuG III with a 105mm gun.
It often (but not necesserily) carried the Schürzen (side armor). What I think is that it
could differ from the current T5 StuG by having less mobility, but more side
armor, plus a different gunshield, as can be seen here:

Earlier, I was checking the sources for a 105mm-equipped StuG IV (that would
fit better), but I couldn’t find any quite honestly. Also, the StuH 42 should
represent the late model (80mm frontal armor) in order to keep the time
continuity.

T5 StuH 42

基本上 StuH 42 就是大家熟知的 StuG III 裝上 105 砲。可能會有車側額外裝甲板。
跟目前的 T5 StuG III 比起來機動性應該會比較差，不過側面裝甲會比較厚，砲盾也會
不同。
見圖 http://ftr.wot-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/stuh42.jpg

之前我再考慮是不是用裝 105 砲的 StuG IV 當作 T5，不過我找不到甚麼資料。同時
 StuH 42 擁有比較符合StuG後期擁有 80mm 後裝甲的特性。

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Tier 6 – Sturmpanzer IV “Brummbär”

Now we are getting to the 150mm area. Now, in my original proposal, I did “
reserve” this spot for the SIG33B, because it was a historical vehicle –
and pushed the StuPa IV on tier 7. With new vehicles appearing, that no longer
seems to be the need.

The Sturmpanzer IV (by the way, it was never called Brummbär by the Germans)
is a notoriously known vehicle, so I won’t go into its history too much –
just a quick overview:

Based on the proven Panzer IV hull, it was developed as an urban combat vehicle
to provide infantry, fighting in cities, with some short-range brutal firepower
, while offering its crew very decent protection (open topped vehicles in
particular were suffering in cities) and cca 300 were built from April 1943
practically to the end of the war. It proved to be quite successful in its
role.

There were several models with a decent level of frontal protection (100mm),
the vehicle was however quite nose heavy, which led to some breakdowns (this
issue was never really fixed, despite numerous attempts). It weighted cca 28
tons and was able to go as fast as 40km/h with its 300hp engine. The depression
and elevation were quite good (-8, +30) and the gun could traverse 20 degrees
to each side. The frontal armor – as mentioned before – was quite good
(100mm front), but the sides were weak (40mm hull, 50mm superstructure).

The gun is already represented in the game (HE/HEAT, PEN 75/185mm, DAM 680hp,
ROF 2,55, ACC 0,78), just for comparison.

Overall, this could be a pretty decent T6 tank destroyer. The gun stats, of
course, would have to be tweaked a bit.

If the gun proves to be too powerful for its tier, it’s possible basically
to “kick it up” to tier 7 and replace

it with a more manageable (yet not very comfortable) SIG33.


T6 Sturmpanzer IV “Brummbär”

接著我們來到150砲的等級。
原先我把這個位子留給史實的 SIG33B並把 StuPa IV 放在 T7，不過看起來不需要這樣做
。

以豹式為底盤的開頂車輛，前裝甲 100mm 側面 40mm(上部結構側面為 50mm)，重約28噸
，靠著 300hp 的引擎最高可以開到 40km/h。

砲的俯仰角為(-8/+30)，射角為(-20/+20)，砲彈為 HE/HEAT, 穿透力 75/185mm， 均傷
 680hp， 射速 2.55發/分，精度 0.78

基本上是輛適合放在T6 的 TD，主砲威力可能會因為太強而調弱，或是直接把這輛車拉上
7階並且把 SIG33 放在 T6。

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Tier 7 – Sturmmörser Panther

This tier should be very, very interesting. There are two options (besides
the abovementioned pushing of StuPa IV to T7): you can either have a
Sturmgeschütz Panther, or the Sturmmörser Panther (the latter being better
documented). I will quote from my earlier text:

Direct fire support high-caliber vehicles with proper armor and short, but
heavy armament were in high demand in the German army, especially in the east.
Such vehicles are quite useful when assaulting heavily fortified positions, or
during city combat.

One of the ideas to convert a Panther into such a vehicle was to replace its
main armament with something heavy. On 18.3.1944, there was an official demand
(apparently from the Heereswaffenamt, along with WaPrüf4) to mount a 210mm
mortar (of an unspecified type, but most likely a newly-developed weapon, not
the French Beutemörser, which were considered years earlier for other
platforms, but something like the 21cm GrW 69 “Elefant”, designed before
1944?). Krupp responded and on 23.6.1944, its representative handed over a
first draft of a 150mm assault mortar

(Sturmmörser) with the StuH 43/1 150mm gun mounted within the Panther turret
(a modification of the gun the Sturmpanzer IV “Brummbär” used). The vehicle
was to have new rangefinder, commander’s copula from the Tiger tank and optics
intended for Maus.

In July 1944, Krupp was informed that all the development of heavy and
superheavy weapons (including the Sturmmörsers) is to be stopped. A wooden
mockup was made nevertheless and presented to Guderian. This still didn’t
save the project – after August 1944, the work on it slowly halted and it
was definitely scrapped around September 1944, including the 210mm variant.

So, what we have here is a Panther with a 150mm StuH in the turret. While its
properties can only be speculated (it’s not very well documented), it will
probably be less moveable than the regular Panther, with the same level of
protection. The “comfort” is provided by the turret (it StuH 43/1 breech
was shorter, allowing for better depression).

Another option would be the Sturmgeschütz Panther, but very little is known
about it, only that it was considered.

If you wondering what it would look like, imagine a Jagdpanther with a 150mm
howitzer.

T7 Sturmmörser Panther

基本上 T7 車會是 Sturmgeschütz Panther 或是 Sturmmörser Panther，由於後者文
件比較齊全所以選它。
車子會以豹式為底盤加上裝在豹式砲塔裡的 150mm StuH 43/1 砲，由於並無詳盡文件所
以此車的性能只能用猜的。
跟豹式相比可能會比較不靈活，裝甲程度則相近。由於 StuH 43/1 的 砲膛比較短所以俯
角會比豹式好。

Sturmgeschütz Panther 的話則沒有甚麼資料，只知道外觀長得像裝了150榴砲的獵豹。

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Tier 8 – Ferdinand mit 210mm Beutemörser

This is one of the more interesting vehicles in this tier. Yes, it is a
Ferdinand with a 210mm mortar. Its history is very colorful. This is more like
Zarax’s domain and he wrote an article about it, I will try to make a summary
of it here:

Remember how me and Zarax argued that the GW Tiger P is unhistorical crap?
Well, yes, it is, but there was a project this vehicle was probably based on.
This info is from Spielberger’s book “Tiger and its variants” (Tiger und
seine Abarten), so it’s quite reliable. Basically, one of the early ideas of
what to do with the Tiger P hulls was to make a Ferdinand Sturmgeschütz with
a captured French 210mm mortar.

This idea was promoted by the Wehrmacht high command in September 1942, but in
October 1942, Hitler (who – unfortunately for the Germans – liked to mess
around with this stuff) stated that if the 150mm SiG can be mounted into the
Panzer IV chassis (resulting later in Sturmpanzer IV), this program is no
longer needed and it was scrapped.

In reality, the result wouldn’t be an artillery vehicle, but an assault gun
in the real sense of the word: a heavily armored vehicle, intended for the
same tasks as the StuPa IV. In World of Tanks terms, it’s simply a
Ferdinand with a 210mm mortar. Naturally, such beast would probably be hard
to balance, but give the fact WG is still considering the Sturmtiger, I think
it’s manageable.

Oh, and about the picture: I made it with quick photoshop, it’s how it would
have roughly looked, the gun is roughly in scale.


T8 Ferdinand mit 210mm Beutemörser

http://ftr.wot-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/fer2x.jpg

基本上就是肥迪南裝上210迫砲(啥鬼神等級的砲...)，在遊戲裡面可能很難平衡。
圖是 SS PS出來的，大概會長得像那樣。

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Tier 9 and Tier 10 – Sturmtiger Prototype and Sturmtiger

Yes, I know you waited for it and here it is, the mighty Sturmtiger. Much has
been written on this vehicle and I know many of you expect it. The truth is,
there are massive issues with its balancing (the 380mm rocket mortar
being possible the most blatant one), but it will appear in the game at some
point.

What we need to have a look at though is the “prototype” at tier 9.
Historically, the first idea to build this kind of vehicle came actually from
the Waffenamt as early as in 1942 (possibly early 1943). The first idea was
to take the Tiger hull and mount a 210mm mortar on it. In real life, this was
scrapped, because no such 210mm mortar was available and would have to be newly
developed. This was considered to be too costly and the idea later came to
replace the 210mm mortar with a 380mm marine rocket launcher. This was
presented to Hitler at some point in 1943 (Spielberger states 5.8.1943), who
loved it and voila, Sturmtiger is born.

The prototype of course would have to have a bit thinner armor and possibly
differently shaped superstructure. All in all, it’s historical, but of course
the exact numbers (like the prototype thickness of the armor) would have to
be balanced by Wargaming.

Another solution would be simply to throw out the Sturmtiger prototype, move
the Ferdinand 210mm to tier 9, the Sturmpanther to tier 8, Brummbär to tier 7
and make the SIG33B tier 6. I hope it doesn’t come to that however, as
I am afraid the 150mm Sturmpanther would underperform at tier 8 (of course, a
210mm variant Sturmpanther was also considered but still).


T9 和 T10 Sturmtiger Prototype and Sturmtiger

有很多關於突擊虎的文章，玩家們也引頸期盼著突擊虎出現在遊戲裡面，不過有個大問題
是怎麼做平衡(擁有380mm 的火箭砲實在是很OP)，之後保證會在某個時間點引進到遊戲裡
面。

我們來看 T9 的 突擊虎原型車，基本上與 T10 本尊比起來裝甲較薄，上部結構可能也長
得不一樣。
雖然此車是史實車，但是實際上裝甲厚度是多少要等 WG 平衡完才知道。

也有可能就直接把突擊虎原型車丟掉，把裝 210 砲的肥迪南放到 T9，Sturmpanther T8
，Brummbär T7 而 SIG33B 擺 T6，
不過我不希望這樣做，原因是我怕 150砲的 Sturmpanther 在 T8 太弱(不過也有考慮是
不是幫 Sturmpanther 裝 210砲並且放 T8)

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And where the hell is the Sturmpanzer Bär?

Short answer: nowhere.

For those who don’t know: the Bär is a superheavy Krupp mortar project,
based on (apparently) the Tiger chassis.

Its development started on 4.3.1943 and it was to be equipped with a 305mm
L/16 mortar, capable of firing 350kg shells, carrying 50kg of explosives.
It was to weight 120 tons and was to be powered by a 700hp Tiger engine,
reaching up to 20 km/h. Its development was stopped after the emeregence of
the Sturmtiger (on 10.5.1943)

I guess I don’t mean to mention there are huge issues with this vehicle,
when it comes to World of Tanks and there are numerous reasons, why I think it
will definitely not make it to the assault gun branch (which, by the way, is
still planned). Notably:

- 0 depression (good luck getting rid of facehuggers)
- atrocious mobility
- 0 camouflage
- unlike the Sturmtiger, this vehicle is HUGE, arties would love it
- balancing 305mm mortar for direct fire: good luck (the Sturmtiger is bad as
it is)

Personally, I think it simply won’t appear in the game and if it does, it
will be an artillery vehicle. One might argue that it’s too overarmored for the artillery role, but if you look at
the tier 10 British arty vehicle, it won’t probably matter that much.

Well, this is it. I hope you like the branch. Personally, I’d love to derp
around a bit.

=

阿那天殺的突擊熊(Sturmpanzer Bär)咧?
http://ftr.wot-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/p1x.jpg

答案是不會有拉!
原因很簡單，因為它被突擊虎取代掉了。
(突擊熊是在喵式底盤上裝上 305mm L/16迫砲，可以發射重達350kg 的砲彈；車身重120
噸而且只用喵式的 700hp 引擎，極速 20km/h)

另一些是我覺得不太可能(即便目前有在計畫)放在TD線裡面的原因:
1. 沒俯角
2. 兇猛的機動性
3. 完全沒隱蔽可言
4. 不像突擊虎，突擊熊超大台，砲兵會很愛它。
5. 要平衡 305mm 砲...祝你好運(其實突擊虎也沒好到哪去)

我個人認為它不會出現在 TD 線，即便真的出現了也會是輛 SPG。
可能會有人說突擊熊當 SPG 也未免太硬了，不過看看隔壁英國的 T10 也是同樣硬梆梆。

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完



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