→ beckli:wow~we saw this before,sooo scary~ 推 61.224.1.175 04/28
→ mansiID:我最喜歡誠實的人了 推 218.164.34.243 04/28
→ houting:中國憤青組織"官方發言版本"(收FAQ嗎? XD) 推 140.116.130.86 04/28
→ larukuyo:請容我叫你一聲大哥哥~ 推 218.184.162.87 04/28
→ DemoCrazy:BBS=entertainment 推 133.6.190.193 04/28
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: beckli (dsf) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: (轉) 我為何主張台灣獨立建國？
時間: Wed Apr 28 01:09:16 2004
※ 引述《DemoCrazy (NULL)》之銘言：
: well, you guys seeking independence can creat your independent country
: anywhere but taiwan island.
: taiwan people have the rights to decide their own future,
: it is not my business.
: but when it comes to the fate of TAIWAN ISLAND, its future should be
: determined by ALL CHINESE CITIZENS.
: Never think you own taiwan island just because you are there.
: It is not your own island. It is OUR ISLAND.
: ※ 引述《Vkhanna (VK)》之銘言：
So, here we go again. Folks in this board are seeing same type of
gibberish every single day.
Every day, there doom to be one of those young, ambitious,
somewhat educated angry young man drop by and say whatever he want to say.
And people here are forced to read, reply same shit every day.
Now, Mr. Demo, maybe you are new here, or maybe you shoose to ignore, but
I believe it is polite to read through some old articles before you open
fire (i.e. Press z button, read through those saved articles).
Again, before ya say something, read and do your research, I believe
you have learn enough of this in school, Danke.
--
Fate Goes Ever Fate Must~ Beowulf
Dulce et Decorum est Pro Patria Mori
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 61.224.1.175
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: DemoCrazy (NULL) 站內: CrossStrait
標題: Re: (轉) 我為何主張台灣獨立建國？
時間: Wed Apr 28 01:25:13 2004
Yes i am new to this board, so what? It is not my first time
to meet jerks yelling independence.
I wont give a shit to those young, ambitious, somewhat UNeducated angry
young man who will grab every chance to bark independence everywhere.
I just want to tell those nerds, Taiwan is also MINE.
※ 引述《beckli (dsf)》之銘言：
: ※ 引述《DemoCrazy (NULL)》之銘言：
: : well, you guys seeking independence can creat your independent country
: : anywhere but taiwan island.
: : taiwan people have the rights to decide their own future,
: : it is not my business.
: : but when it comes to the fate of TAIWAN ISLAND, its future should be
: : determined by ALL CHINESE CITIZENS.
: : Never think you own taiwan island just because you are there.
: : It is not your own island. It is OUR ISLAND.
: So, here we go again. Folks in this board are seeing same type of
: gibberish every single day.
: Every day, there doom to be one of those young, ambitious,
: somewhat educated angry young man drop by and say whatever he want to say.
: And people here are forced to read, reply same shit every day.
: Now, Mr. Demo, maybe you are new here, or maybe you shoose to ignore, but
: I believe it is polite to read through some old articles before you open
: fire (i.e. Press z button, read through those saved articles).
: Again, before ya say something, read and do your research, I believe
: you have learn enough of this in school, Danke.
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 133.6.190.193
→ nolonger21:好好好 都是你的 中國一定強 一中帝國萬歲 推218.165.150.134 04/28
→ nolonger21:多幾個來這叫囂宣示主權的 根本無益於交流 推218.165.150.134 04/28
→ Vkhanna:叫半天 還是中國共產黨的奴隸 推 168.122.14.163 04/28
→ Vkhanna:叫半天 來台灣還是要游泳過來 叫 YY 用的 推 168.122.14.163 04/28
→ Vkhanna:還以為多叫幾次 台灣就真變成他的 推 168.122.14.163 04/28
→ larukuyo:好久沒有看到這樣清新脫俗的中國憤青~ 推 218.184.162.87 04/28
→ DemoCrazy:haha, thanks. have fun, girls 推 133.6.190.193 04/28
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: beckli (dsf) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: (轉) 我為何主張台灣獨立建國？
時間: Wed Apr 28 01:46:10 2004
※ 引述《DemoCrazy (NULL)》之銘言：
: Yes i am new to this board, so what? It is not my first time
: to meet jerks yelling independence.
: I wont give a shit to those young, ambitious, somewhat UNeducated angry
: young man who will grab every chance to bark independence everywhere.
: I just want to tell those nerds, Taiwan is also MINE.
: ※ 引述《beckli (dsf)》之銘言：
Sonny, ya know, it's also not my first time seeing this kind of attitude.
Did you ever wonder why people who believe in the indepence of Taiwan
kept increasing?
Yes, you have the right to believe whatever you want to believe. Know
this, twenty years ago, the majority of people in Taiwan believe Mainland
China belongs to ROC.
You surely have your own reason to believe in what you
just said. But you can at least chil out, because anything we discuss here
ain't gonna happen in our lives. 60 years ago, Taiwanese want to be "sons
and daughters" of the Japnese Empire, 20 years ago, we want to be Chinese,
now, I only want to be Taiwanese. Yes, we do not have 5000 yrs of history,
yes, we do not have rich natural resource, and may be like you said, we
are thieves, barking dogs who interupt the Great Mother China's prosperity.
But that's the choice we Taiwanese people are going to make, it's our call.
Surely ya can blow the jesus out of us if we make some decision ya'all
don't like, it's also you Chinese' call to do so.
I only hope 20 yrs or so later, ya'all will find out what you really
want to be, what you really want. Chiang Kai-Shek managed to convice us
to believe in what he want us to believe, I wish you did not fall into
same trap we Taiwanese people had fallen into in past 50 yrs.
(by the way, read, read, read, this three hollowed word meant somthing:
Knowledge= Power)
--
Fate Goes Ever Fate Must~ Beowulf
Dulce et Decorum est Pro Patria Mori
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 61.224.1.175
※ 編輯: beckli 來自: 61.224.1.175 (04/28 01:50)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: DemoCrazy (NULL) 站內: CrossStrait
標題: Re: (轉) 我為何主張台灣獨立建國？
時間: Wed Apr 28 01:58:59 2004
※ 引述《beckli (dsf)》之銘言：
: Sonny, ya know, it's also not my first seeing this kind of attitude.
** oh yeah, you love this kind of games? So do i, haha.
: Did you ever wonder why people who believe in the indepence of Taiwan
: kept increasing?
why shall I care that? Even all taiwan ppl wanna be independent, so what?
Taiwan is also mine.
: Yes, you have the right to believe whatever you want to believe. Know
: this, twenty years ago, the majority of people in Taiwan believe Mainland
: China belongs to ROC. You surely have your own reason to believe in what you
: just said. But you can at least chil out, because anything we discuss here
: ain't gonna happen in our lives. 60 years ago, Taiwanese wantED to be "sons
: and daughters" of the Japnese Empire, 20 years ago, we wantED to be Chinese,
: now, I only want to be Taiwanese. Yes, we do not have 5000 yrs of history,
: yes, we do not have rich natural resource, and may be like you said, we
: are thieves, barking dogs who interupt the Great Mother China's prosperity.
Come on, dude, only after you get independent, you are qualified to be a thief.
But unfortunately, i dont think it will come true, hehe. I am so sorry.
: But that's the choice we Taiwanese people are going to make, it's our call.
: Surely ya can blow the jesus out of us if we make some decision ya'all
: don't like, it's also you Chinese' call to do so.
you are selling war to us? hmmm, we may or may not buy it.
: I only hope 20 yrs or so later, ya'all will find out what you really
: want to be, what you really want. Chiang Kai-Shek managed to convice us
: to believe in what he want us to believe, I wish you did not fall into
: same trap we Taiwanese people had fallen into in past 50 yrs.
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 133.6.190.193
→ houting:....are you acidhead? 推 140.116.130.86 04/28
→ Vkhanna:不需要理會糞青 推 168.122.14.163 04/28
→ mansiID:勸告:一竿子打翻一船人.注意! 推 218.164.34.243 04/28
→ beckli:ya should never drink the bottom water~ 推 61.224.1.175 04/28
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: beckli (dsf) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: (轉) 我為何主張台灣獨立建國？
時間: Wed Apr 28 02:22:25 2004
OK, I believe there's no cross section between me and Mr. Demo.
As I said, people have the right to believe. But only reality counts.
And the reality is, as a cadet from "not really a country" country, I can
walk around the campus of the United States Air Force Academy with no one
escort(spying) me, but those poor kids from PRC were limited to only hang
around in certain part of the camous with 24hrs of escort. And my name tag
says I am from Taiwan, a member of Taiwan AF, not a province of China.
So, what you want to do to change this dilema? Keep on posting articles
here to proof Taiwan belong to China, or do something actually good for
your life? Sure you can dig out some ancient history to proof what I said is
wrong. And certainly most country do not recon' Taiwan as a real country,
but is there any way for you to proof to me that China, does have any sort
of sovereinty over Taiwan? Like a pay tab, tax receipt, goverment paper.
I believe you can't. It's OK if you want to be a fighting ostrich with
your head in the dirt while yelling Taiwan is yours, but if you really
want to do something, I believe this is not ta right attitude.
Once again, I and people in this board are being throw into this endless
circle of answering kids like you, once agian we are here to solve this
dilema. I can only tell you to read, gather some actual information before
you launch any sort of non-sense theory. Remeber, the reality is you cowboys
can do jack to current situation, so do we, but we accept it long time ago,
maybe it's time for ya'all to wake up.
(Know that 60 yrs ago we have a lot of people like you, only that they
want to be "the pure child of the Emperor".)
--
Fate Goes Ever Fate Must~ Beowulf
Dulce et Decorum est Pro Patria Mori
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 61.224.1.175
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: DemoCrazy (NULL) 站內: CrossStrait
標題: Re: (轉) 我為何主張台灣獨立建國？
時間: Wed Apr 28 02:29:35 2004
※ 引述《beckli (dsf)》之銘言：
: OK, I believe there's no cross section between me and Mr. Demo.
: As I said, people have the right to believe. But only reality counts.
: And the reality is, as a cadet from "not really a country" country, I can
: walk around the campus of the United States Air Force Academy with no one
: escort(spying) me, but those poor kids from PRC were limited to only hang
: around in certain part of the camous with 24hrs of escort. And my name tag
: says I am from Taiwan, a member of Taiwan AF, not a province of China.
you know why?because taiwan can never be a qualified rival to the U.S. ;)
Uncle Sam need not take care of your guys. ;-)
: So, what you want to do to change this dilema? Keep on posting articles
: here to proof Taiwan belong to China, or do something actually good for
proof->prove?
lost my interest to read more .....
: your life? Sure you can dig out some ancient history to proof what I said is
: wrong. And certainly most country do not recon' Taiwan as a real country,
: but is there any way for you to proof to me that China, does have any sort
: of sovereinty over Taiwan? Like a pay tab, tax receipt, goverment paper.
: I believe you can't. It's OK if you want to be a fighting ostrich with
: your head in the dirt while yelling Taiwan is yours, but if you really
: want to do something, I believe this is not ta right attitude.
: Once again, I and people in this board are being throwN into this endless
: circle of answering kids like you, once agian we are here to solve this
: dilema. I can only tell you to read, gather some actual information before
: you launch any sort of non-sense theory. Remeber, the reality is you cowboys
:
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 133.6.190.193
→ houting:you got erratums in yours too 推 140.116.130.86 04/28
→ beckli:thanks for proofread my junk, 推 61.224.1.175 04/28
→ beckli:but you got to do better than this. 推 61.224.1.175 04/28
→ beckli:Com'on man, show me what ya got~ 推 61.224.1.175 04/28
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: beckli (dsf) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: (轉) 我為何主張台灣獨立建國？
時間: Wed Apr 28 02:38:36 2004
Now I am certain that you, Mr. Demo, are a fighting ostrich with ya
head in da hole.
You can proof none but some random shadows of the old age. If you want
to convince people here that Taiwan belongs to you boys&gals please do so
with some hardcore evidence. The truce is Taiwan survive as a real country,
even it is not base on your theory. And people treat Taiwanese with more
respect simply because we earned it.
Show me, please enlight me, what you can do with this island that you
claimed to be yours. (If it's yours, you surely need no visa or passport
to get in this island.)
Face the reality even you don't like it.
--
Fate Goes Ever Fate Must~ Beowulf
Dulce et Decorum est Pro Patria Mori
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 61.224.1.175
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: DemoCrazy (NULL) 站內: CrossStrait
標題: Re: (轉) 我為何主張台灣獨立建國？
時間: Wed Apr 28 02:56:28 2004
Read the following stuff first, boy.
1. Cairo Declaration issued by the Chinese, United States and British
governments, (Dec,1943)
2. Potsdam Declaration signed by China, the United States and Britain,
endored by the former SU.. The Cairo Declaration shall be carried out.
3. 1972 Sino-US Shanghai Joint Communiqu, the 1978 Sino-US Joint Communiqu,
the Communiqu of August 17 1982
※ 引述《beckli (dsf)》之銘言：
: Now I am certain that you, Mr. Demo, are a fighting ostrich with ya
: head in da hole.
: You can proof none but some random shadows of the old age. If you want
: to convince people here that Taiwan belongs to you boys&gals please do so
: with some hardcore evidence. The truce is Taiwan survive as a real country,
: even it is not base on your theory. And people treat Taiwanese with more
: respect simply because we earned it.
: Show me, please enlight me, what you can do with this island that you
: claimed to be yours. (If it's yours, you surely need no visa or passport
: to get in this island.)
: Face the reality even you don't like it.
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 133.6.190.193
→ houting:declaration? do you have TREATY ? 推 140.116.130.86 04/28
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: beckli (dsf) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: (轉) 我為何主張台灣獨立建國？
時間: Wed Apr 28 03:23:14 2004
Now we are getting somewhere.
But do those old treaties counts? Or if it counts, do PRC have the ability
to enforce it?
Its a fact that RIGHT MEOW China doesn't rule over Taiwan. My point is
(as always) there's no good for us to discuss this here.
People who believe in Taiwan is an independent country like me will not
change our mind because some old treaties, so do people like you won't believe
that Taiwan DOES exist as a real country. There's tons of holes and leaks
behind those treaties you showed me,and the most important of all, who
really cares. Say you guys just got Hong-Kong back several yrs ago, eh?
According to the treaty signed between Ching dynasty and UK, UK owns
Hong-Kong island forever, why they bother to give it back?
The fact is reality overules any type of reason, treaty, paper,
or whatever. Ya alone cannot wipe out the existence of Taiwan as a
country, we Taiwanese people earn it through our hands. We beg, steal,
borrow just to survive. You can say whatever to achieve your spiritual
victory but ya can change none. Taiwan survived in the eternal power
struggle/conflicts between national powers, we have kissed Japanese and
Uncle Sam's ass to kept our heads between our shoulders and thats the way
it goes. I wouldn't mind if people in my generation have to cry, bleed,
or suck more dicks just so our kids can live in a island of freedom and
peace so that they can choose whatever they want to be.
Remeber this, my ancesters abandoned their lands to ferr across the
strait for pure survival, and I will kept on doing so until there's no
one, not you Chinese (or Japs or Yanks, or even Martians), come by and tell
we Taiwanese folks that we are not a real country or we can not be
independent cause so and so said so. The most important of all, I hope my kids
don't have to answer some dumb questions like "Do you think you are Chinese?".
Of course, all of the above is what I believe, you believe in whatever you
want.
--
Fate Goes Ever Fate Must~ Beowulf
Dulce et Decorum est Pro Patria Mori
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 61.224.1.175
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: DemoCrazy (NULL) 站內: CrossStrait
標題: Re: (轉) 我為何主張台灣獨立建國？
時間: Wed Apr 28 03:05:11 2004
If you wanna play according to rules, well, God is staying with us.
If you wanna play fire, hmmmm, the U.S. may stay with you OR
just leave you alone. The U.S. once kicked the poor ROC away.
I respect ROC though.
※ 引述《DemoCrazy (NULL)》之銘言：
: Read the following stuff first, boy.
: 1. Cairo Declaration issued by the Chinese, United States and British
: governments, (Dec,1943)
: 2. Potsdam Declaration signed by China, the United States and Britain,
: endored by the former SU.. The Cairo Declaration shall be carried out.
: 3. 1972 Sino-US Shanghai Joint Communiqu, the 1978 Sino-US Joint Communiqu,
: the Communiqu of August 17 1982
: ※ 引述《beckli (dsf)》之銘言：
: : Now I am certain that you, Mr. Demo, are a fighting ostrich with ya
: : head in da hole.
: : You can proof none but some random shadows of the old age. If you want
: : to convince people here that Taiwan belongs to you boys&gals please do so
: : with some hardcore evidence. The truce is Taiwan survive as a real country,
: : even it is not base on your theory. And people treat Taiwanese with more
: : respect simply because we earned it.
: : Show me, please enlight me, what you can do with this island that you
: : claimed to be yours. (If it's yours, you surely need no visa or passport
: : to get in this island.)
: : Face the reality even you don't like it.
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 133.6.190.193
→ beckli:GOD? WOW~which one? 推 61.224.1.175 04/28
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: DemoCrazy (NULL) 站內: CrossStrait
標題: Re: (轉) 我為何主張台灣獨立建國？
時間: Wed Apr 28 03:37:09 2004
hey, baby, except emotional bs... what else will you say? we ppl from
mainland may also cry for the U.S. seperating my country and blah, blah...
But those emotional bullshit wont help solve the problem.
ok, let me tell you what i think about taiwan problem:
dont rush to seek so called independence, it wont bring you guys any good.
before we can find a practical solution, just live you happy life there, i bet
CCP wont bother to push you reunite harshly. and I also can save my time from
kicking your little ass. But if you guys push too much, we may have to response
, passively.
※ 引述《beckli (dsf)》之銘言：
: Now we are getting somewhere.
: But do those old treaties counts? Or if it counts, do PRC have the ability
: to enforce it?
: Its a fact that RIGHT MEOW China doesn't rule over Taiwan. My point is
: (as always) there's no good for us to discuss this here.
: People who believe in Taiwan is an independent country like me will not
: change our mind because some old treaties, so do people like you won't believe
: that Taiwan DOES exist as a real country. There's tons of holes and leaks
: behind those treaties you showed me,and the most important of all, who
: really cares. Say you guys just got Hong-Kong back several yrs ago, eh?
: According to the treaty signed between Ching dynasty and UK, UK owns
: Hong-Kong island forever, why they bother to give it back?
: The fact is reality overules any type of reason, treaty, paper,
: or whatever. Ya alone cannot wipe out the existence of Taiwan as a
: country, we Taiwanese people earn it through our hands. We beg, steal,
: borrow just to survive. You can say whatever to achieve your spiritual
: victory but ya can change none. Taiwan survived in the eternal power
: struggle/conflicts between national powers, we have kissed Japanese and
: Uncle Sam's ass to kept our heads between our shoulders and thats the way
: it goes. I wouldn't mind if people in my generation have to cry, bleed,
: or suck more dicks just so our kids can live in a island of freedom and
: peace so that they can choose whatever they want to be.
: Remeber this, my ancesters abandoned their lands to ferr across the
: strait for pure survival, and I will kept on doing so until there's no
: one, not you Chinese (or Japs or Yanks, or even Martians), come by and tell
: we Taiwanese folks that we are not a real country or we can not be
: independent cause so and so said so. The most important of all, I hope my kids
: don't have to answer some dumb questions like "Do you think you are Chinese?".
: Of course, all of the above is what I believe, you believe in whatever you
: want.
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 133.6.190.193
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: body (Miracle) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: (轉) 我為何主張台灣獨立建國？
時間: Wed Apr 28 04:00:26 2004
Wow, a lot of emotions and logics.
I do respect all your guys, and whatever you are thinking or doing.
Basically, I respect all human beings.
The only question is that: don't you think Taiwan is too small
to do what you want to do?
The independence of Taiwan only causes unwanted troubles and turmoils,
and I don't think your kids and another generation will apppreciate that.
Think about North Ireland and Scotland. I repect the brave hearts of
the people, but I don't agree the violence and bloodshed.
I believe that you will devote yourself or even other people's life
toward what you are talking about. But does that promote the democracy
and well-being of other people? It can be called selfish according
to its definition.
Also, have you ever thought about this:
Isn't this independence stuff too outdated?
This kind of thing should have been done hundreds of years ago, if
not thousands of years ago.
My impression is that forming a new country is a saga of all times,
until the 21st century.
※ 引述《beckli (dsf)》之銘言：
: Now we are getting somewhere.
: But do those old treaties counts? Or if it counts, do PRC have the ability
: to enforce it?
: Its a fact that RIGHT MEOW China doesn't rule over Taiwan. My point is
: (as always) there's no good for us to discuss this here.
: People who believe in Taiwan is an independent country like me will not
: change our mind because some old treaties, so do people like you won't believe
: that Taiwan DOES exist as a real country. There's tons of holes and leaks
: behind those treaties you showed me,and the most important of all, who
: really cares. Say you guys just got Hong-Kong back several yrs ago, eh?
: According to the treaty signed between Ching dynasty and UK, UK owns
: Hong-Kong island forever, why they bother to give it back?
: The fact is reality overules any type of reason, treaty, paper,
: or whatever. Ya alone cannot wipe out the existence of Taiwan as a
: country, we Taiwanese people earn it through our hands. We beg, steal,
: borrow just to survive. You can say whatever to achieve your spiritual
: victory but ya can change none. Taiwan survived in the eternal power
: struggle/conflicts between national powers, we have kissed Japanese and
: Uncle Sam's ass to kept our heads between our shoulders and thats the way
: it goes. I wouldn't mind if people in my generation have to cry, bleed,
: or suck more dicks just so our kids can live in a island of freedom and
: peace so that they can choose whatever they want to be.
: Remeber this, my ancesters abandoned their lands to ferr across the
: strait for pure survival, and I will kept on doing so until there's no
: one, not you Chinese (or Japs or Yanks, or even Martians), come by and tell
: we Taiwanese folks that we are not a real country or we can not be
: independent cause so and so said so. The most important of all, I hope my kids
: don't have to answer some dumb questions like "Do you think you are Chinese?".
: Of course, all of the above is what I believe, you believe in whatever you
: want.
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 65.169.145.68
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: beckli (dsf) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: (轉) 我為何主張台灣獨立建國？
時間: Wed Apr 28 03:56:51 2004
※ 引述《DemoCrazy (NULL)》之銘言：
: hey, baby, except emotional bs... what else will you say? we ppl from
: mainland may also cry for the U.S. seperating my country and blah, blah...
: But those emotional bullshit wont help solve the problem.
: ok, let me tell you what i think about taiwan problem:
: dont rush to seek so called independence, it wont bring you guys any good.
: before we can find a practical solution, just live you happy life there, i bet
: CCP wont bother to push you reunite harshly. and I also can save my time from
: kicking your little ass. But if you guys push too much, we may have to response
: , passively.
: ※ 引述《beckli (dsf)》之銘言：
Very True. Now we are facing the problem aren't we.
Too bad what you did is different from what you just said.
You boys always claim that Taiwan belong to China, but I see not evidence
to suppot that theory. Could you please tell me base on what law, rule or
reg that Taiwan can not be indepent. You have to realize ANYTHING could
happened in a democratic country (or not a real country base on your theory
,like Taiwan) anything could happen. Basically in a demoratic "place" if
a little green man from Mars have civil right he could one day be a president.
And if people wanted to, the green man can do whatever he's authorized to do.
So Taiwan could declare total indepence and give ya'all red cowboys the finger
if Taiwanese people vote to do so. Who can stop them? No one, no one on this
island could if the majority vote says go. In the other hand, there's still
possibility for what you claimed to happen, only if Taiwanese people
choose to do so.
I know it's hard for ya'all to imagine that in a society such as China.
But that the way it goes here. Maybe it's not rational, but that's how
system works here. And personaly, I do believe time has come for us
to make at least the decision for what direction this boat going to sail.
People cannot be an ostrich all the time, it time to make up our minds.
(Oh, I got a fat ass, I gained 15kg recently, I ain't got little ass,
lover. And I don't swing that direction also, stop commeninting me butt.)
--
Fate Goes Ever Fate Must~ Beowulf
Dulce et Decorum est Pro Patria Mori
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 61.224.1.175
※ 編輯: beckli 來自: 61.224.1.175 (04/28 04:00)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: DemoCrazy (NULL) 站內: CrossStrait
標題: Re: (轉) 我為何主張台灣獨立建國？
時間: Wed Apr 28 04:13:19 2004
Hey, boy, be logical.
If you need any theory, the theory is out there as i gave to you in the previous
post. If you need more, i can give you more. but i bet, you , again, will say it
is out of date.
Now, let me tell you the dirty game under the table,
Yes, wedont deny you have the rights to decide your own future. But when your
decision may violate other players' interest, then it is not your own story.
after taiwan's independence, for the sake of security, taiwan will turn to Japan
and the U.S. for protection. It will pose a great threat to mainland. So it is
impossible for taiwan to keep a friendly relationshil with mainland.
If you guys can find another land to establish your country, just do that. Or,
If you guys can say No to the U.S and Japan, mainland may consider your independence.
But does taiwan have the guts? No, taiwan does NOT.
So, folks, grow up.
※ 引述《beckli (dsf)》之銘言：
: Very True. Now we are facing the problem aren't we.
: Too bad what you did is different from what you just said.
: You boys always claim that Taiwan belong to China, but I see not evidence
: to suppot that theory. Could you please tell me base on what law, rule or
: reg that Taiwan can not be indepent. You have to realize ANYTHING could
: happened in a democratic country (or not a real country base on your theory
: ,like Taiwan) anything could happen. Basically in a demoratic "place" if
: a little green man from Mars have civil right he could one day be a president.
: And if people wanted to, the green man can do whatever he's authorized to do.
: So Taiwan could declare total indepence and give ya'all red cowboys the finger
: if Taiwanese people vote to do so. Who can stop them? No one, no one on this
: island could if the majority vote says go. In the other hand, there's still
: possibility for what you claimed to happen, only if Taiwanese people
: choose to do so.
: I know it's hard for ya'all to imagine that in a society such as China.
: But that the way it goes here. Maybe it's not rational, but that's how
: system works here. And personaly, I do believe time has come for us
: to make at least the decision for what direction this boat going to sail.
: People cannot be an ostrich all the time, it time to make up our minds.
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 133.6.190.193
→ beckli:Oh, that sounds like what we have now~ 推 61.224.1.175 04/28
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: beckli (dsf) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: (轉) 我為何主張台灣獨立建國？
時間: Wed Apr 28 04:22:36 2004
※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: Wow, a lot of emotions and logics.
: I do respect all your guys, and whatever you are thinking or doing.
: Basically, I respect all human beings.
: The only question is that: don't you think Taiwan is too small
: to do what you want to do?
: The independence of Taiwan only causes unwanted troubles and turmoils,
: and I don't think your kids and another generation will apppreciate that.
: Think about North Ireland and Scotland. I repect the brave hearts of
: the people, but I don't agree the violence and bloodshed.
: I believe that you will devote yourself or even other people's life
: toward what you are talking about. But does that promote the democracy
: and well-being of other people? It can be called selfish according
: to its definition.
: Also, have you ever thought about this:
: Isn't this independence stuff too outdated?
: This kind of thing should have been done hundreds of years ago, if
: not thousands of years ago.
: My impression is that forming a new country is a saga of all times,
: until the 21st century.
: ※ 引述《beckli (dsf)》之銘言：
I can tell you are much kinder than those angry young man here and I do
appreciate you opinion.
You missed a crucial point of my article, that I do support the independent
of Taiwan, but I ain't that great that I have the ability to force other
people on this island to follow me. On the contrary, if people of Taiwan
choose to unite with China, I will acept it. I accept whatever decision
Taiwanese make, that's the spirit of democratic. Furthermore, there's
not only one way to achieve independent, and of course not neccessarily
through bloodshed. The most important of all, I do not see any possibility
of changing in crossstrait relationship in next 20 yrs or even later.
Of course, yes, I do believe in the independence of Taiwan, but that is just
me. Again, if Taiwanese people choose to do A, I cannot do B even if I don't
like.
And about the size of Taiwan, man, don't you ever heard size doesn't
matter? Say we have achieved cerntain degree of prosperity in past 60 yrs,
it at least demostrated that we can survive anyhow, eh? May be an
independent Taiwan is a dream (actaully, we are "actually" independent
already, aren't we?), but when there's enough people are dreaming even
work for it, it is not. I can only hope our good neighbor respect our
decision, and accept it. I do believe the cross-strait relationship should
be so much better than what we have right now. But only when both sides achieve
one mutual respect (for instance, basic recognition), there hope for
the improvement of the cross straight relationship.
--
Fate Goes Ever Fate Must~ Beowulf
Dulce et Decorum est Pro Patria Mori
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 61.224.1.175
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: beckli (dsf) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: (轉) 我為何主張台灣獨立建國？
時間: Wed Apr 28 04:36:52 2004
Mr. Demo, basically what you just said are what we are having right now.
Taiwan IS seeking protection from US and Japan, so what the difference
between Taiwan right now and an independent Taiwan.
Or maybe I am wrong about you peace loving folks aiming us with tons of
missile are threatening us? Oh, maybe the missiles are for ours protection,
wow.
Com'on, you are the one need to grow up here, the dirty game is that
A: Taiwan IS a real country wether ya like it or not.
B: There's no difference for you guys wether Taiwan declare independence
or not.
C: The truce is wether you like it or not, Taiwan belong to China only
in your imagination. Of course you can imagine whatever you want.
The good thing is that we finaly have some similarity that we all
believe Taiwan IS seeking foreign protection to defend itself from
Chines threat.
--
Fate Goes Ever Fate Must~ Beowulf
Dulce et Decorum est Pro Patria Mori
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 61.224.1.175
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: body (Miracle) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: (轉) 我為何主張台灣獨立建國？
時間: Wed Apr 28 04:48:50 2004
Thank you for your kind words.
I understand that there can be many type of people in a democratic world,
and people can vote to do whatever they like.
The problem is that, democracy does not always guarantee the right result.
The Chinese history didn't provide much samples for us to learn, but
let's study some foreign samples.
Think about the consequences of Nazi in German history. The German
economy had some difficult times, and generally German people didn't
like Jews too much. So in the vote, Nazi gained the power, and led the
whole country to World War II. The Jews suffered in the tragedy, and
most of them were killed or robbed.
In a democracy world where Jews aren't the majority, there can be no
ways for them to do anything to help themselves. They can vote, but
so what? They won't vote to be killed by Nazi.
Like the Blues in Taiwan, there can never be no win for them.
So the opinions of majorities in a democracy society sometimes lead
to very unfavorable result for minorities, and the sword of democracy
is double-edged: it can cut both sides.
This doesn't mean that democracy is not good.
Actually, I think most people in Mainland favor democracy, but the
reality is that: it's not a easy journey.
※ 引述《beckli (dsf)》之銘言：
: ※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: : Wow, a lot of emotions and logics.
: : I do respect all your guys, and whatever you are thinking or doing.
: : Basically, I respect all human beings.
: : The only question is that: don't you think Taiwan is too small
: : to do what you want to do?
: : The independence of Taiwan only causes unwanted troubles and turmoils,
: : and I don't think your kids and another generation will apppreciate that.
: : Think about North Ireland and Scotland. I repect the brave hearts of
: : the people, but I don't agree the violence and bloodshed.
: : I believe that you will devote yourself or even other people's life
: : toward what you are talking about. But does that promote the democracy
: : and well-being of other people? It can be called selfish according
: : to its definition.
: : Also, have you ever thought about this:
: : Isn't this independence stuff too outdated?
: : This kind of thing should have been done hundreds of years ago, if
: : not thousands of years ago.
: : My impression is that forming a new country is a saga of all times,
: : until the 21st century.
: I can tell you are much kinder than those angry young man here and I do
: appreciate you opinion.
: You missed a crucial point of my article, that I do support the independent
: of Taiwan, but I ain't that great that I have the ability to force other
: people on this island to follow me. On the contrary, if people of Taiwan
: choose to unite with China, I will acept it. I accept whatever decision
: Taiwanese make, that's the spirit of democratic. Furthermore, there's
: not only one way to achieve independent, and of course not neccessarily
: through bloodshed. The most important of all, I do not see any possibility
: of changing in crossstrait relationship in next 20 yrs or even later.
: Of course, yes, I do believe in the independence of Taiwan, but that is just
: me. Again, if Taiwanese people choose to do A, I cannot do B even if I don't
: like.
: And about the size of Taiwan, man, don't you ever heard size doesn't
: matter? Say we have achieved cerntain degree of prosperity in past 60 yrs,
: it at least demostrated that we can survive anyhow, eh? May be an
: independent Taiwan is a dream (actaully, we are "actually" independent
: already, aren't we?), but when there's enough people are dreaming even
: work for it, it is not. I can only hope our good neighbor respect our
: decision, and accept it. I do believe the cross-strait relationship should
: be so much better than what we have right now. But only when both sides achieve
: one mutual respect (for instance, basic recognition), there hope for
: the improvement of the cross straight relationship.
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 65.169.145.68
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: beckli (dsf) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: (轉) 我為何主張台灣獨立建國？
時間: Wed Apr 28 05:00:53 2004
※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: Thank you for your kind words.
: I understand that there can be many type of people in a democratic world,
: and people can vote to do whatever they like.
: The problem is that, democracy does not always guarantee the right result.
: The Chinese history didn't provide much samples for us to learn, but
: let's study some foreign samples.
: Think about the consequences of Nazi in German history. The German
: economy had some difficult times, and generally German people didn't
: like Jews too much. So in the vote, Nazi gained the power, and led the
: whole country to World War II. The Jews suffered in the tragedy, and
: most of them were killed or robbed.
: In a democracy world where Jews aren't the majority, there can be no
: ways for them to do anything to help themselves. They can vote, but
: so what? They won't vote to be killed by Nazi.
: Like the Blues in Taiwan, there can never be no win for them.
: So the opinions of majorities in a democracy society sometimes lead
: to very unfavorable result for minorities, and the sword of democracy
: is double-edged: it can cut both sides.
: This doesn't mean that democracy is not good.
: Actually, I think most people in Mainland favor democracy, but the
: reality is that: it's not a easy journey.
: ※ 引述《beckli (dsf)》之銘言：
I like what you said, cuase you point out the weak spot of democracy.
Sadly it is the price we have to pay if choose democracy.
I can not agree with you about the part you compare the Jews with
the Pan-Blue supporters in Taiwan. You must know there's lots of reasons
leads to their defeat, remember when you study the politics of Taiwan,
you should always read more than one brand of newspapers. Of course
the ethical problem did effect in Taiwan, but the Jews cannot be compare
with the supporter of Pan-Blue. I kinda think they are more of the white
people in S.Africa. But the ethical problem in Taiwan did not serve as
a decision fact in this passing election, and there's nothing ethical
in this so called ethical cause its really a nationality recognition
problem.
And you like you said, the road to a true democracy republic is long
and painful, as we Taiwanese been through in the past 50 yrs.
There's still a long way for China to go.
--
Fate Goes Ever Fate Must~ Beowulf
Dulce et Decorum est Pro Patria Mori
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 61.224.1.175