Re: 中國與台灣的歷史關系ꄊ時間: Sat May 1 04:43:43 2004

[body (Miracle)]

Qing dynasty conquered China, that's true.
China was not Qing.

Qing got all land of China by defeating China.

Then, China defeated Qing in 1911. So China should
get all land of Qing, include Taiwan, right?


※ 引述《KAGI (OTARU)》之銘言：
: ※ 引述《xiaowang (sowhat)》之銘言：
: : 在清政府割讓台灣給日本的<<馬關條約>>中,
: : "大清帝國"和"中國"的用法是互換和相通的.
: : 所以,既然那時台灣是屬于大清國,當然也是屬于中國的.
: 中國本土還曾是蒙古帝國的一部分咧
: 照你Chinese這種邏輯
: 既然那時中國本土是屬於蒙古帝國 當然也是屬於蒙古的     XD
: 孫文'驅逐韃虜恢復中華' 顯然大清國不是中華(國)   ^^
: : 條約原文(摘錄)：
: : 一八九五年四月十七日，光緒二十一年三月二十三日，明治二十八年四月十七日，馬關。
: : 大清帝國大皇帝陛下及大日本帝國大皇帝陛下為訂定和約，俾兩國及其臣民重修平和，
: : 共享幸福，且杜絕將來紛紜之端.  ......
: : 第一款 中國認明朝鮮國確為完全無缺之獨立自主，故凡有虧損獨立自主體制，
: : 即如該國向中國所修貢獻典禮，嗣後全行廢絕。
: : 第二款 中國將管理下開地方之權並將該地方所有堡壘、軍器工廠及一切屬公物件，
: : 永遠讓與日本：
: : 一. .......
: : 二. 台灣全島及所有附屬各島嶼。
: : 三. 澎湖列島，即英國格林尼次東經百十九度起至百二十度止，及北緯二十三度起
: :     至二十四度之間諸島嶼。
: : .......

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) 
◆ From: 65.169.145.68
→ KAGI:1911大清領土不含台灣.當時台灣屬日本領土
→ houting:大清自己用的英文翻譯是"Qing"嗎?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <

作者: coolbro (天無絕人之路) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: 中國與台灣的歷史關系ꄊ時間: Sat May  1 07:00:56 2004

※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: Qing dynasty conquered China, that's true.
: China was not Qing.
: Qing got all land of China by defeating China.
: Then, China defeated Qing in 1911. So China should
: get all land of Qing, include Taiwan, right?

大清帝國把台灣割讓給了日本，
是割讓喔，不是像租界那樣用租的喔。
所以"中國"擊敗了"大清帝國"，理當得到所有大清帝國的領土，
但是不包括台灣，因為台灣當時是日本的領土。
我懷疑你到底懂不懂歷史！
台灣曾是大清帝國的一部份，後來歸日本所有，
現在則是中華民國的領土。
而你所謂的中國，中華人民共和國，從來不曾擁有過台灣！

: ※ 引述《KAGI (OTARU)》之銘言：
: : 中國本土還曾是蒙古帝國的一部分咧
: : 照你Chinese這種邏輯
: : 既然那時中國本土是屬於蒙古帝國 當然也是屬於蒙古的     XD
: : 孫文'驅逐韃虜恢復中華' 顯然大清國不是中華(國)   ^^
※ 編輯: coolbro         來自: 61.229.152.169       (05/01 07:01)

> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <

作者: body (Miracle) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: 中國與台灣的歷史關系ꄊ時間: Sat May  1 07:11:52 2004

Great discussion.

It's true that Taiwan was part of Japan when China
defeated Qing dynasty.

However, China also defeated Japan in 1945.

Please remember, it's not just KMT who defeated Japan.
Japan  was also defeated by CPP.

So China go Taiwan back in 1945, right?
And it's not just KMT, both CPP and KMT had a share
of Taiwan.

And CPP defeated KMT IN 1949. So CPP should have all
land of KMT, right?


※ 引述《coolbro (天無絕人之路)》之銘言：
: ※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: : Qing dynasty conquered China, that's true.
: : China was not Qing.
: : Qing got all land of China by defeating China.
: : Then, China defeated Qing in 1911. So China should
: : get all land of Qing, include Taiwan, right?
: 大清帝國把台灣割讓給了日本，
: 是割讓喔，不是像租界那樣用租的喔。
: 所以"中國"擊敗了"大清帝國"，理當得到所有大清帝國的領土，
: 但是不包括台灣，因為台灣當時是日本的領土。
: 我懷疑你到底懂不懂歷史！
: 台灣曾是大清帝國的一部份，後來歸日本所有，
: 現在則是中華民國的領土。
: 而你所謂的中國，中華人民共和國，從來不曾擁有過台灣！
: ※ 編輯: coolbro         來自: 61.229.152.169       (05/01 07:01)

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) 
◆ From: 65.169.145.68
→ nolonger21:日本當時是放棄對台灣主權 並未歸還中國
→ beckli:well, but ya have to come and claim it~
→ houting:....誰是"CPP"? 洗屁屁小站bbs? XD
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <

作者: KAGI (OTARU) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: 中國與台灣的歷史關系ꄊ時間: Sat May  1 12:08:58 2004

※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: Great discussion.
: It's true that Taiwan was part of Japan when China
: defeated Qing dynasty.
: However, China also defeated Japan in 1945.

打敗日本的是盟軍 尤其是盟軍中的主力:美國
ROC雖是盟軍一員 但當時被日本打趴到窩在西南邊上喘
這樣也算打敗日本喔？  呵
當然
以加入幫派(盟軍)借大哥(USA)力量來圍毆(JPN)的中國阿Q角度來看
鼻青臉腫的ROC阿Q地'宣稱'打敗了日本    XD

: Please remember, it's not just KMT who defeated Japan.
: Japan  was also defeated by CPP.

CCP當時的策略是'七分發展、二分應付、一分抗日'
kmt-ROC在前面跟日本嘟 被日本打趴在地上鼻青臉腫
CCP躲在kmt-ROC後面利用國難'轉大人'
偶爾偷踹KMT兩腳 戳日本一手
按中國阿Q觀點
CCP阿Q地'宣稱'抗日有份 而且CCP'打敗'了日本     XD

: So China go Taiwan back in 1945, right?

日本放棄台澎 但沒歸還給China   見前文  (目前編號5274)

: And it's not just KMT, both CPP and KMT had a share
: of Taiwan.

kmt-ROC強佔台灣  ccp-PRC厚顏要分一盃羹
ccp-PRC的中國阿Q邏輯是：
我(PRC)既然霸了你(kmt-ROC)幾乎全部的家當(China)
那麼你(kmt-ROC)當初在外頭強佔的那一塊(Taiwan)'理所阿Q當然地'是我(PRC)的    XD

: And CPP defeated KMT IN 1949. So CPP should have all
: land of KMT, right?

如上  中國阿Q邏輯強盜版

再者 (仿你上句來造句)
盟軍在1945打敗了日本 所以盟軍應該擁有日本全部的領土  對嗎？   呵呵


: ※ 引述《coolbro (天無絕人之路)》之銘言：
: : 大清帝國把台灣割讓給了日本，
: : 是割讓喔，不是像租界那樣用租的喔。
: : 所以"中國"擊敗了"大清帝國"，理當得到所有大清帝國的領土，
: : 但是不包括台灣，因為台灣當時是日本的領土。
: : 我懷疑你到底懂不懂歷史！
: : 台灣曾是大清帝國的一部份，後來歸日本所有，
: : 現在則是中華民國的領土。
: : 而你所謂的中國，中華人民共和國，從來不曾擁有過台灣！

--

台灣魂        http://www.taip.org/03.mp3

勇敢的台灣人  http://my.so-net.net.tw/hexkey/xrush/gtw.wmv


--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) 
◆ From: 218.166.139.3
→ nolonger21:哈哈 我喜歡你文章的風格 XD
→ iamsosorry:我也是
→ Melancholy23:一想到共產黨把抗戰歸為自己的功勞我就怒
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <

作者: EmilChau (天下布武) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: 中國與台灣的歷史關系ꄊ時間: Sat May  1 13:39:27 2004

※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: Great discussion.
: It's true that Taiwan was part of Japan when China
: defeated Qing dynasty.
: However, China also defeated Japan in 1945.
打敗日本的不是中國，是老美
更明確的說，是老美在長崎市與廣島市丟下原子彈，迫使日軍投降
要是當初老美不幫KMT和CPP，現在你我都是大日帝國的子民
不....台灣人的位階可能還比後滅亡的中國人高一階
因為我們是殖民地的子民，你們卻是亡國奴
: Please remember, it's not just KMT who defeated Japan.
: Japan  was also defeated by CPP.
當時CPP的戰力還遠不及KMT
要是日本殲滅KMT，老毛可能要準備陪老蔣去拜謁天皇
: So China go Taiwan back in 1945, right?
: And it's not just KMT, both CPP and KMT had a share
: of Taiwan.
: And CPP defeated KMT IN 1949. So CPP should have all
: land of KMT, right?
: ※ 引述《coolbro (天無絕人之路)》之銘言：
: : 大清帝國把台灣割讓給了日本，
: : 是割讓喔，不是像租界那樣用租的喔。
: : 所以"中國"擊敗了"大清帝國"，理當得到所有大清帝國的領土，
: : 但是不包括台灣，因為台灣當時是日本的領土。
: : 我懷疑你到底懂不懂歷史！
: : 台灣曾是大清帝國的一部份，後來歸日本所有，
: : 現在則是中華民國的領土。
: : 而你所謂的中國，中華人民共和國，從來不曾擁有過台灣！

--
總統蔣公！你是人類的救星，老婆已經去陪你！
　　總統蔣公！你是自由的燈塔，快叫連宋去見你！

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) 
◆ From: 140.116.130.12
→ nolonger21:XD
→ tTiger:是啊,要是日本勝利了多好.大家都說日語.
→ ecoman:三峽大霸的文物也不會這麼快埋沒~~
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <

作者: body (Miracle) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: 中國與台灣的歷史關系ꄊ時間: Sun May  2 01:02:16 2004

There is nothing wrong to have allies and claim victory
by using allies' armed force. Any person who has any
military sense knows that you should have allies in the war.

And it's the fact that if you win in the war, you get the
land back which you lost before the war.

The country who lost in the war has no right to say whom
he wants to give the land. If you win the war, or you
recapture the land, you get the land back.

I am not encouraging the way of resolving international issues
by war. I am just stating that it's a fact.

The fact is that US recaptured Guam in 1944, and US got
Guam back. Although many Japanese still think Guam is part
of Japan, it's the fact that US has got it back.

Another fact is that China recaptured Taiwan in 1945, and China
got Taiwan back. Although many Japanese still think they didn't
give Taiwn back to China, it's the fact that China has got it back.

It would just be ridiculous that China won the war, and still lost
the land.

By the way, all land of the United Stated were prizes of war,
except Alaska. Although US didn't claim Japan as the 51st state of US,
it still has military presence in Japan. Formally, Japan is still
occupied by US.


※ 引述《KAGI (OTARU)》之銘言：
: ※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: : Great discussion.
: : It's true that Taiwan was part of Japan when China
: : defeated Qing dynasty.
: : However, China also defeated Japan in 1945.
: 打敗日本的是盟軍 尤其是盟軍中的主力:美國
: ROC雖是盟軍一員 但當時被日本打趴到窩在西南邊上喘
: 這樣也算打敗日本喔？  呵
: 當然
: 以加入幫派(盟軍)借大哥(USA)力量來圍毆(JPN)的中國阿Q角度來看
: 鼻青臉腫的ROC阿Q地'宣稱'打敗了日本    XD
: : Please remember, it's not just KMT who defeated Japan.
: : Japan  was also defeated by CPP.
: CCP當時的策略是'七分發展、二分應付、一分抗日'
: kmt-ROC在前面跟日本嘟 被日本打趴在地上鼻青臉腫
: CCP躲在kmt-ROC後面利用國難'轉大人'
: 偶爾偷踹KMT兩腳 戳日本一手
: 按中國阿Q觀點
: CCP阿Q地'宣稱'抗日有份 而且CCP'打敗'了日本     XD
: : So China go Taiwan back in 1945, right?
: 日本放棄台澎 但沒歸還給China   見前文  (目前編號5274)
: : And it's not just KMT, both CPP and KMT had a share
: : of Taiwan.
: kmt-ROC強佔台灣  ccp-PRC厚顏要分一盃羹
: ccp-PRC的中國阿Q邏輯是：
: 我(PRC)既然霸了你(kmt-ROC)幾乎全部的家當(China)
: 那麼你(kmt-ROC)當初在外頭強佔的那一塊(Taiwan)'理所阿Q當然地'是我(PRC)的    XD
: : And CPP defeated KMT IN 1949. So CPP should have all
: : land of KMT, right?
: 如上  中國阿Q邏輯強盜版
: 再者 (仿你上句來造句)
: 盟軍在1945打敗了日本 所以盟軍應該擁有日本全部的領土  對嗎？   呵呵

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) 
◆ From: 65.169.145.68
→ houting:No, Hawaii islands aren't, either.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <

作者: body (Miracle) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: 中國與台灣的歷史關系ꄊ時間: Sun May  2 01:19:07 2004

It is the atomic bombs which defeated Japan.

It just doesn't matter whether it's you
or your ally gave the final blow.

It's the fact the both China and US won the war.
It's just ridiculous to say that China lost the war, right?

If there were no US, it's still questionable that Japan
could conquer the whole China.

Japan used more than 10 years and 2/3 of its armed forces,
and still controlled less than half of China. Even in
its heyday, Japanese forces were only present in China's
urban areas. Most of the population of China were still
fighting.

Also, even China was defeated by Japan, it still doesn't
matter. Japan is just too small to consume the whole China.
Like the Yuan and Qing dynasty, Japan dynasty would be
defeated by China, eventually. I don't think you will imagine
that Japna dynasty can last forever, right?

=================================================

By the way, I don't think it's noble to think that you will
be superior than other Chinese people in a Japan dynasty.


We will be fighting together against Japanese if that's the
case, right?

=================================================

※ 引述《EmilChau (天下布武)》之銘言：
: ※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: : Great discussion.
: : It's true that Taiwan was part of Japan when China
: : defeated Qing dynasty.
: : However, China also defeated Japan in 1945.
: 打敗日本的不是中國，是老美
: 更明確的說，是老美在長崎市與廣島市丟下原子彈，迫使日軍投降
: 要是當初老美不幫KMT和CPP，現在你我都是大日帝國的子民
: 不....台灣人的位階可能還比後滅亡的中國人高一階
: 因為我們是殖民地的子民，你們卻是亡國奴
: : Please remember, it's not just KMT who defeated Japan.
: : Japan  was also defeated by CPP.
: 當時CPP的戰力還遠不及KMT
: 要是日本殲滅KMT，老毛可能要準備陪老蔣去拜謁天皇
: : So China go Taiwan back in 1945, right?
: : And it's not just KMT, both CPP and KMT had a share
: : of Taiwan.
: : And CPP defeated KMT IN 1949. So CPP should have all
: : land of KMT, right?

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) 
◆ From: 65.169.145.68
→ oeil:嗯…沒有美國﹐很多大陸青年就不用借助各
→ oeil:種超自然事件返回到憧憬中的抗日年代了XD
→ houting:日軍根本不用打下整個中國,他們要的是南洋
→ loly:日本吃掉中國自己反而漢化XD
→ oeil:& bo兄認為not noble恐怕他們認為noble哦
→ KAGI:把假定當事實,中國阿Q史觀再度發功
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <

作者: chi30 (中華隊加油~~~!!!) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: 中國與台灣的歷史關系ꄊ時間: Sun May  2 04:00:14 2004

※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: There is nothing wrong to have allies and claim victory
: by using allies' armed force. Any person who has any
: military sense knows that you should have allies in the war.
: And it's the fact that if you win in the war, you get the
: land back which you lost before the war.
: The country who lost in the war has no right to say whom
: he wants to give the land. If you win the war, or you
: recapture the land, you get the land back.
: I am not encouraging the way of resolving international issues
: by war. I am just stating that it's a fact.
: The fact is that US recaptured Guam in 1944, and US got
: Guam back. Although many Japanese still think Guam is part
: of Japan, it's the fact that US has got it back.
: Another fact is that China recaptured Taiwan in 1945, and China
: got Taiwan back. Although many Japanese still think they didn't
: give Taiwn back to China, it's the fact that China has got it back.

        This is another China man's lie. Yes, Republic of China got Taiwan

        back. But she lost whole china to PRC. PRC have never ruled Taiwan.

        These is absolute no reason for you guys to acclaim Taiwan is part of

        PRC. What you chinese guys are doing is just like  what japanese did

        during WWII. ROC won WWII so ROC got Taiwan back. PRC won the civil

        war so chinese got China. ROC still exists. Shes is still in Taiwan.




: ※ 引述《KAGI (OTARU)》之銘言：
: : 打敗日本的是盟軍 尤其是盟軍中的主力:美國
: : ROC雖是盟軍一員 但當時被日本打趴到窩在西南邊上喘
: : 這樣也算打敗日本喔？  呵
: : 當然
: : 以加入幫派(盟軍)借大哥(USA)力量來圍毆(JPN)的中國阿Q角度來看
: : 鼻青臉腫的ROC阿Q地'宣稱'打敗了日本    XD
: : CCP當時的策略是'七分發展、二分應付、一分抗日'
: : kmt-ROC在前面跟日本嘟 被日本打趴在地上鼻青臉腫
: : CCP躲在kmt-ROC後面利用國難'轉大人'
: : 偶爾偷踹KMT兩腳 戳日本一手
: : 按中國阿Q觀點
: : CCP阿Q地'宣稱'抗日有份 而且CCP'打敗'了日本     XD
: : 日本放棄台澎 但沒歸還給China   見前文  (目前編號5274)
: : kmt-ROC強佔台灣  ccp-PRC厚顏要分一盃羹
: : ccp-PRC的中國阿Q邏輯是：
: : 我(PRC)既然霸了你(kmt-ROC)幾乎全部的家當(China)
: : 那麼你(kmt-ROC)當初在外頭強佔的那一塊(Taiwan)'理所阿Q當然地'是我(PRC)的    XD
: : 如上  中國阿Q邏輯強盜版
: : 再者 (仿你上句來造句)
: : 盟軍在1945打敗了日本 所以盟軍應該擁有日本全部的領土  對嗎？   呵呵

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) 
◆ From: 164.107.86.93
→ oeil:大哥﹐他講的是China而不是PRC吧
→ oeil:對了﹐您認為R.O.C是外來政權嗎﹖
→ oeil:BTW:您很理性﹐請不要用chinaman之類 3x
→ oeil:否則您就算用chi na,我也無所謂也不會勸您
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <

作者: body (Miracle) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: 中國與台灣的歷史關系ꄊ時間: Thu May  6 03:04:59 2004

The Mongolian Empire is composed of four seperate kingdoms, which were called khanates.
Yuan dynasty is only part of the 4 kingdoms. According to the traditions of Mongols,
the Great Khan should control all 4 kindoms. However, the later Great Khan, Kublai Khan
conquered China and set up a new dynasty (Yuan), and lost his control over other
khanates. The real territory of Yuan dynasty is only limited to Mongolia and China.

After Chu Yuan-Chang defeated Yuan dynasty, all of the land of the Great Khanate (Yuan)
became land of China. Since the other 3 khanates have never been ruled by Yuan, it
was not considered part of China.

The other 3 khanates were Russia, Persia and  Middle East, Western Asia.

※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: ※ 引述《kehn (奇怪的牛)》之銘言：
: :  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: : 然後中國就開始宣稱包括東南亞在內的日本征服區皆"中國神聖不可分割的一部分"?
:    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: Please make some sense:
: If Japan defeated China and took all land of China,
: then what's wrong if China defeat Japan and take all land of Japan?
: : 果然是典型中國人的阿Q邏輯
:    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: How do you know who is typical and who is not?
: It's not friendly to say somebody like this.

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) 
◆ From: 65.169.145.68
→ kehn:NO,忽必烈was the overlord theoretically
→ kehn:and don't forget korea and Vietnam
→ KAGI:0分.一般說蒙古大帝國包括元與四大汗國
→ KAGI:元為宗主.而你汗國也少算一個.
→ kehn:YOU LOSE,little poor lol
→ KAGI:元與諸汗國的疆域,你也描述得不對.
→ beckli:there's no "what if" in real world.....
→ body:It was kehn who started first.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <

作者: coolbro (天無絕人之路) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: 中國與台灣的歷史關系ꄊ時間: Fri May  7 04:01:51 2004

可不可以把"行的長度"縮短一點啊！
後面的字都看不到，很煩吶。
Please make each line shorter.

我直接改一下排版囉。

※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: The Mongolian Empire is composed of four seperate kingdoms,
: which were called khanates.
: Yuan dynasty is only part of the 4 kingdoms.
元朝不在那四個帝國裡面，
他跟另外四個帝國是同時並存的啦。
四個汗國：欽察、窩闊臺、察合臺、伊兒
連這個都不知道，怎麼會敢人家談歷史呢？
: According to the traditions of Mongols,
: the Great Khan should control all 4 kindoms.
: However, the later Great Khan, Kublai Khan
: conquered China and set up a new dynasty (Yuan),
: and lost his control over other
: khanates. The real territory of Yuan dynasty is only limited to
: Mongolia and China.
: After Chu Yuan-Chang defeated Yuan dynasty,
: all of the land of the Great Khanate (Yuan)
: became land of China. Since the other 3 khanates have never been
: ruled by Yuan, it
: was not considered part of China.
: The other 3 khanates were Russia, Persia and  Middle East, Western Asia.
既然你也知道：
the other 3 khanates have never been ruled by Yuan,
it was not considered part of China.
那麼，台灣從來沒有被中華人民共和國統治，
所以，台灣就不是貴國的一部份。

中共沒有把中華民國消滅掉。
當然沒有理由主張中華民國統治下的台灣，是你中共的一部份。
你引述的歷史邏輯，剛好反駁你自己的話。

: ※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: :    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: : Please make some sense:
: : If Japan defeated China and took all land of China,
: : then what's wrong if China defeat Japan and take all land of Japan?
當年日本打敗清朝，簽訂馬關條約，條約中明定割讓台灣給日本。
人家就算是戰爭，也是有合於法律的程序，而且為國際所承認。

但是，1945年ROC對日抗戰勝利，卻沒有合法程序將台灣劃歸ROC，
所以ROC直接奪佔台灣，已經有點勉強了。
你PRC既然沒有消滅ROC，更沒資格主張台灣是你的。
不然，你打過來，把ROC消滅，那台灣才真的是你的。

: : How do you know who is typical and who is not?
Typical Chinese a-Q spirit is used to saying lies,
then make himself believe that these lies are true.
Like you.
: : It's not friendly to say somebody like this.
However, it is true.
※ 編輯: coolbro         來自: 61.229.150.77        (05/07 04:08)

> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <

作者: body (Miracle) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: 中國與台灣的歷史關系ꄊ時間: Fri May  7 06:33:29 2004

※ 引述《coolbro (天無絕人之路)》之銘言：
: 可不可以把"行的長度"縮短一點啊！
: 後面的字都看不到，很煩吶。

Sorry, I tried. But E key doesn't work here.
Don't know how to edit after posted.

: Please make each line shorter.
: 我直接改一下排版囉。
: ※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: : The Mongolian Empire is composed of four seperate kingdoms,
: : which were called khanates.
: : Yuan dynasty is only part of the 4 kingdoms.
: 元朝不在那四個帝國裡面，
: 他跟另外四個帝國是同時並存的啦。

Please study the map of Mongol Empire at :

http://depts.washington.edu/chinaciv/1xaryuan.htm


: 四個汗國：欽察、窩闊臺、察合臺、伊兒
: 連這個都不知道，怎麼會敢人家談歷史呢？

I will be happy to learn new stuff.
But if people don't talk unless they have learned
all knowledges, then I am afraid nobody
can talk any more.

: : According to the traditions of Mongols,
: : the Great Khan should control all 4 kindoms.
: : However, the later Great Khan, Kublai Khan
: : conquered China and set up a new dynasty (Yuan),
: : and lost his control over other
: : khanates. The real territory of Yuan dynasty is only limited to
: : Mongolia and China.
: : After Chu Yuan-Chang defeated Yuan dynasty,
: : all of the land of the Great Khanate (Yuan)
: : became land of China. Since the other 3 khanates have never been
: : ruled by Yuan, it
: : was not considered part of China.
: : The other 3 khanates were Russia, Persia and  Middle East, Western Asia.
: 既然你也知道：
: the other 3 khanates have never been ruled by Yuan,
: it was not considered part of China.
: 那麼，台灣從來沒有被中華人民共和國統治，
: 所以，台灣就不是貴國的一部份。

TRUE.
Taiwan is not part of PRC.
And this doesn't mean Taiwan is not part of China.
PRC is the largest and most legitimate government of China
and shall rule Taiwan.


: 中共沒有把中華民國消滅掉。
: 當然沒有理由主張中華民國統治下的台灣，是你中共的一部份。

Taiwan is a part of ROC.
Both PRC and ROC are parts of China.
This is a fact.
They came from a historic event where two parties
of China must fight with each other to decide
who is the legitimate government.

PRC didn't exterminate ROC, it doesn't mean it can't.
It's just that there is a better and peaceful way to do that.

: 你引述的歷史邏輯，剛好反駁你自己的話。

ROC is not one of the other three Khanates.
If there does exit any similarity between ROC and Yuan,
ROC is more like the Great Khanate(Yuan dynasty) itself,
and only in the way that both ruled China for a very short time.

: 當年日本打敗清朝，簽訂馬關條約，條約中明定割讓台灣給日本。
: 人家就算是戰爭，也是有合於法律的程序，而且為國際所承認。

Who is the internation? Which international country signed on the treaty?
According to which law that Japan can take Taiwan using a treaty?
Besides, treaties created in the war can be abandoned after war.
Especially if the other country who lost wins later.

: 但是，1945年ROC對日抗戰勝利，卻沒有合法程序將台灣劃歸ROC，

What lawful program do you need?
Japan took almost all land of China without a program.
Why didn't you tell Japan to use some programs before they
invaded China?

: 所以ROC直接奪佔台灣，已經有點勉強了。

Japan took almost all land of China directly.
Why couldn't China take Taiwan back directly?

: 你PRC既然沒有消滅ROC，更沒資格主張台灣是你的。
: 不然，你打過來，把ROC消滅，那台灣才真的是你的。

Do not treat kindness as weakness.

It's just for the benefits of Chinese people in Taiwan,
that the issue of Taiwan should be resolved peacefully.

The civil war of China was a nightmare for all people of China,
and I don't think we should continue that war.

: Typical Chinese a-Q spirit is used to saying lies,
: then make himself believe that these lies are true.

What's the benefit of making yourself duped while you are lying?
If there is no benifit, then why would you do that?

: Like you.
: However, it is true.
: ※ 編輯: coolbro         來自: 61.229.150.77        (05/07 04:08)

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) 
◆ From: 65.169.145.68
→ kehn:hurry up!china at last should claim
→ kehn:THAT "russia is theoratically part of
→ kehn:CHINA"IN UN according to you,right?
→ kehn:AND LOOK AT THE MAP from your link it
→ kehn:IS OBVIOUS THAT KOREA WAS PART OF YUAN!
→ kehn:MAYBE i will agree to you ONLY IF YOUR
→ kehn:COUNTRY take back korea
→ kehn:and treaty can only be abandoned by
→ kehn:barberians,and that is why japen has
→ kehn:paid the price of suffering from atomic
→ kehn:bomb.or you can say it dosen't matter
→ kehn:because china itself is a barberic
→ kehn:country:)
→ kehn:WHERE are you,man
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <

作者: Geigemachen (reverie of cavalry) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: 中國與台灣的歷史關系ꄊ時間: Fri May  7 07:20:52 2004

※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: ※ 引述《coolbro (天無絕人之路)》之銘言：
: : 可不可以把"行的長度"縮短一點啊！
: : 後面的字都看不到，很煩吶。
: Sorry, I tried. But E key doesn't work here.
: Don't know how to edit after posted.
: : Please make each line shorter.
: : 我直接改一下排版囉。
: : 元朝不在那四個帝國裡面，
: : 他跟另外四個帝國是同時並存的啦。
: Please study the map of Mongol Empire at :
: http://depts.washington.edu/chinaciv/1xaryuan.htm

Please read about the line quoted from your link:
"It was the Great Khanate that was known to the Chinese as the Yuan dynasty."
So the other three Khanates didn't belong to the Yuan dynasty.


: : the other 3 khanates have never been ruled by Yuan,
: : it was not considered part of China.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
        You see, your link proves it.
元朝是The great Khanate,不包含另外三大汗國...

: : 那麼，台灣從來沒有被中華人民共和國統治，
: : 所以，台灣就不是貴國的一部份。
: Taiwan is a part of ROC.
: Both PRC and ROC are parts of China.
: This is a fact.
: They came from a historic event where two parties
: of China must fight with each other to decide
: who is the legitimate government.

我想用中國歷史請問你，魏晉南北朝到底南朝還是北朝是全中國合法政府？
五胡十六國＋前秦 or 東晉？
北魏 or 宋齊梁？
東魏, 西魏,北周,北齊 or 梁陳？
最後是隋贏了，所以南方漢族政權都是”偽政府”？
還是你能告訴我，哪年到哪年誰是偽政府？

五代十國也是，北方都是正統，南方都是”偽政府”嗎？
那麼北漢政權從”正統”變成”叛亂團體”是西元哪一年？
你能告訴我嗎？

還是南方有南方暫時的正統，北方有北方暫時的正統？
很明顯，都是事後百年才有定論的..

Obviously, the question "who is the legitimate government" may have
definite answer after hundreds of years ago...

現在定義哪一個政府是正統未免也太早..
民國初年北伐軍在戰勝北洋政府前，是不是可以視為叛亂團體？
國民黨軍戰勝奉系成為正統政府，又敗給共黨成為叛亂團體，
如果國民黨軍又反攻成功呢？共黨政府是否又被視為叛亂團體？

你想要定義”正統合法政府”可以，但是這是由當代人判定，
還是由後人決定？否則很容易混亂分不清楚

: Japan took almost all land of China directly.
: Why couldn't China take Taiwan back directly?

However China could or not, she HASN'T DONE IT YET.
法統問題如我上面描述，body兄請回答我；
實力問題就是擺在眼前，台灣五十年內沒有共產黨統治，
我今天早上起床也是如此

: Do not treat kindness as weakness.
　　　　　　　　　　　
: The civil war of China was a nightmare for all people of China,
　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^　　　　　
: and I don't think we should continue that war.
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I'm glad you're a humanist, so you don't want to bring nightmare to all
the Chinese.  Since you've give up the attempt to do that,
"invasion into Taiwan" is not you option, alright?
台灣方面如果要體諒中方的"kindness"，陳水扁總統可以去想辦法..
這是”對鄰國的體貼與kindness”避免刺激貴國的分離主義份子
把貴國拆成四分五裂，我們總統如果願意幫你們，那是我們的"kindness"
不要把台灣的配合當作理所當然的"weakness"

孔子說”推己及人”兩方設身處地想一想，除非你打倒孔家店不信這套，
兩方並沒有什麼"kindness"的義務，那是"BONUS"，OK？

--
魚防水，無法呼吸啊......



--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 61.230.52.86
※ 編輯: Geigemachen     來自: 61.230.52.86         (05/07 07:23)

> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <

作者: body (Miracle) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: 中國與台灣的歷史關系ꄊ時間: Sat May  8 01:37:22 2004

Great Article.

There are many questions which only historians could answer.

However, as we have already observed so much about Taiwan
and China, we should be able to tell some truth.

※ 引述《Geigemachen (reverie of cavalry)》之銘言：
: ※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: : Sorry, I tried. But E key doesn't work here.
: : Don't know how to edit after posted.
: : Please study the map of Mongol Empire at :
: : http://depts.washington.edu/chinaciv/1xaryuan.htm
: Please read about the line quoted from your link:
: "It was the Great Khanate that was known to the Chinese as the Yuan dynasty."
: So the other three Khanates didn't belong to the Yuan dynasty.
:     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:         You see, your link proves it.
: 元朝是The great Khanate,不包含另外三大汗國...

This is exactly what I said. Yuan has only real control of the territory
of Great khanate, which forms the predecessor of China's Ming dynasty.

The relationship between Taiwan and Mainland is different than the 4 khanates
of Mongol Empire. The first Great Khan, Genghis Khan, seperated Mongol Empire
into 4 pieces and gave each son a piece. The Mongolia itself is controlled
by the Great Khanate.

The relationship between these 4 khanates are more like the european countries,
where each country has its own government and collects its own taxes. The
Great Khan can command the other Khanates in several ways, however, the
effectiveness of his command will depend on his own power.

After Taiwan became part of China (ROC) in 1945, there were no such government
iniated action to seperate Taiwn from other parts of China to form seperate
governments. The current state of existence of two seperated governments
was the result of the civil war, and it does not justify the status of Taiwan
as a seperate government.

From this viewpoint, Taiwan can not be considered comparative to one of the
Khanates of Mongol Empire, and thus be seperated from the Mainland.


: : Taiwan is a part of ROC.
: : Both PRC and ROC are parts of China.
: : This is a fact.
: : They came from a historic event where two parties
: : of China must fight with each other to decide
: : who is the legitimate government.
: 我想用中國歷史請問你，魏晉南北朝到底南朝還是北朝是全中國合法政府？
: 五胡十六國＋前秦 or 東晉？
: 北魏 or 宋齊梁？
: 東魏, 西魏,北周,北齊 or 梁陳？
: 最後是隋贏了，所以南方漢族政權都是”偽政府”？
: 還是你能告訴我，哪年到哪年誰是偽政府？
: 五代十國也是，北方都是正統，南方都是”偽政府”嗎？
: 那麼北漢政權從”正統”變成”叛亂團體”是西元哪一年？
: 你能告訴我嗎？
: 還是南方有南方暫時的正統，北方有北方暫時的正統？
: 很明顯，都是事後百年才有定論的..

It's already halfway to your one hundred years criterion. And every
reasonable conclusion should be halfway to be accepted, right?

The current status is that PRC is the predominant governmnet of China.
The legitimacy of ROC can be barely maintained. PLUS, ROC can not
abate the overwhelming force of indepency in Taiwan, and this
further questions the legitimacy of ROC as the legal government of China.

If ROC renounces its claimed status as legitimate government of China by
forming an independent Taiwan, then this will only further confirm
PRC as the only legitimate government of China.

However, the civil war between two governments of China could end its
halted status and  evolve to a much escalated war, which I think
both governments could have been able to prevent by other means if
Taiwan had not declared its independence.


: Obviously, the question "who is the legitimate government" may have
: definite answer after hundreds of years ago...
: 現在定義哪一個政府是正統未免也太早..
: 民國初年北伐軍在戰勝北洋政府前，是不是可以視為叛亂團體？
: 國民黨軍戰勝奉系成為正統政府，又敗給共黨成為叛亂團體，
: 如果國民黨軍又反攻成功呢？共黨政府是否又被視為叛亂團體？
: 你想要定義”正統合法政府”可以，但是這是由當代人判定，
: 還是由後人決定？否則很容易混亂分不清楚
: : Japan took almost all land of China directly.
: : Why couldn't China take Taiwan back directly?
: However China could or not, she HASN'T DONE IT YET.
: 法統問題如我上面描述，body兄請回答我；
: 實力問題就是擺在眼前，台灣五十年內沒有共產黨統治，

This is the same for ROC, while it has lost control of Mainland
for more than 50 years.

The power of each party could have been the predominant factor
to decide how to end this status, if we are still living in
the 20th century.

However, there could exist other possible ways to decide our
future, in a peaceful way.


: 我今天早上起床也是如此
: : Do not treat kindness as weakness.
: 　　　　　　　　　　　
: : The civil war of China was a nightmare for all people of China,
: 　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^　　　　　
: : and I don't think we should continue that war.
:       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: I'm glad you're a humanist, so you don't want to bring nightmare to all
: the Chinese.  Since you've give up the attempt to do that,
: "invasion into Taiwan" is not you option, alright?
: 台灣方面如果要體諒中方的"kindness"，陳水扁總統可以去想辦法..
: 這是”對鄰國的體貼與kindness”避免刺激貴國的分離主義份子
: 把貴國拆成四分五裂，我們總統如果願意幫你們，那是我們的"kindness"
: 不要把台灣的配合當作理所當然的"weakness"
: 孔子說”推己及人”兩方設身處地想一想，除非你打倒孔家店不信這套，
: 兩方並沒有什麼"kindness"的義務，那是"BONUS"，OK？

There can be no kindness between two countries, and it's true.
However, since we still believe ROC and PRC are two integrated parts
of China, we have the need to show kindness to each other.
And this kindness should not be bogus.

I believe in the bright futur of both ROC and PRC, and hope the
kindness between them will bring us together, in a peaceful way.

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) 
◆ From: 65.169.145.68
→ beckli:True, but won't change anything.
→ lordcolus:two integrated parts of China?
→ Geigemachen:That's a soft expression
→ kehn::hurry up!china at last should claim
→ kehn:THAT "russia is theoratically part of
→ kehn:CHINA"IN UN according to you,right?
→ kehn:AND LOOK AT THE MAP from your link it
→ kehn:IS OBVIOUS THAT KOREA WAS PART OF YUAN!
→ kehn:MAYBE i would agree to you ONLY IF YOUR
→ kehn:COUNTRY took back korea;)
→ kehn:WOW where are you body,how about korea?
→ body:Sorry, my boss was walking behind me.
→ kehn:HEY,man.don't escape from the issue!
→ body:Let's deal with our own problems first?
→ kehn:YOU haven't answered me yet about korea
→ kehn:KOREA was part of yuan,and therefore it
→ kehn:should be part of china according to
→ kehn:YOU,right?
→ body:Ming did claimed north korea at 1388.
→ kehn:OH YES,and prc should do the same,go!
→ kehn:BUT why I never hear your country do so
→ body:A pro-Ming Korea was founded in 1392.
→ kehn:?WHY your country dosn't do anything
→ body:Since then, Korea and China were allies
→ kehn:look back on what you wrote!korea is
→ kehn:and should be part of china!
→ kehn:SEE MY QUESTION BELOW
→ kehn:where are you,body,always remember what
→ kehn:YOU wrote or you're always a loser:)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <

作者: Geigemachen (reverie of cavalry) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: 中國與台灣的歷史關系ꄊ時間: Sat May  8 02:29:02 2004


: From this viewpoint, Taiwan can not be considered comparative to one of the
: Khanates of Mongol Empire, and thus be seperated from the Mainland.
: The current status is that PRC is the predominant governmnet of China.
: The legitimacy of ROC can be barely maintained.
同理，台灣中華民國政府是代表其勢力範圍的合法政府，
中華人民共和國政府也是代表中國大部分地區合法的政府，但是不包括台灣..

如果台灣依照”北漢(台灣)與契丹(美日)結盟”的模式，反抗PRC(北宋政府)，
那麼台灣(北漢)仍然是台灣(山西地區)的合法政府，沒錯吧？

楊家將故事很有趣，大家有空讀一讀..

http://sir.pthc.chc.edu.tw/student/s013103/OtherPage/%E5%8F%A4%E5%85%B8%E5%B0%8F%E8%AA%AA/%E6%A5%8A%E5%AE%B6%E5%B0%87/%E6%A5%8A%E5%AE%B6%E5%B0%87.htm

以下就有兩個可能..

1.兩中邏輯
　全中國=中華民國政府＋中華人民共和國政府
　兩個政府都是合法統治其領土，後者常被簡稱為”合法的中國政府”，
　但非”唯一的中國政府”？
　
　類似南北韓／東西德的狀況，你同意嗎？

2.一中一台邏輯
　台灣如果宣布獨立，也不過是”北漢政府”維持”北漢國號”(台灣／中華民國)，
　不使用”宋”(中華人民共和國)國號．
　北宋如果願意犧牲經濟攻打北漢的楊家將，就可以試著征服；
　如果北宋要招安，可用計讓楊家將為北宋效力打契丹(美日)
　
　中國方面對於美日有一定的反感，美日等國如果當作”契丹””西夏”，
　那又如何？
　”契丹””西夏”涉入中國週邊事務太深，最後變成中國史的一部分．
　美日干涉也不是什麼萬惡帝國主義，中國如果有本事，把美日各併吞當作
　中國的一省，不然中國可能變成美國的一州..

  中國歷史成王敗寇的事情多得是，”正統”是由實力決定的，勝方修史，
　然後自稱是正統，對方是偽政府..國界與領土都會改變，
　強調”固有正統合法”常混淆不清..

  以北京所在地燕雲十六州為例，北宋說它是固有領土，遼金蒙古就是以武力佔領，
　如果遼金蒙古都當作偽政府，那麼這三四百年內只有南北宋是北京市的
　”正統合法擁有者”？
　沒有統治事實的”正統”最後還是沒有用..

--
    ___
   6@_@9
   4| |7
    2 5

讓我先想一想......

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) 
◆ From: 61.230.56.111
→ houting:"正統"與否其實根本是事後不諸葛 =.=
→ kehn:he has escaped from the issue,sad
→ body:I will be back, for sure.
→ Geigemachen:我要表達"誰合法統治"要由統治事實決定
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <

作者: kehn (奇怪的牛) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: 中國與台灣的歷史關系ꄊ時間: Sat May  8 03:18:59 2004

※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: ※ 引述《kehn (奇怪的牛)》之銘言：
: :  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: : 然後中國就開始宣稱包括東南亞在內的日本征服區皆"中國神聖不可分割的一部分"?
:    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: Please make some sense:
: If Japan defeated China and took all land of China,
: then what's wrong if China defeat Japan and take all land of Japan?
look back on what you wrote,body.
MONGOLIA defeated china and took all land of China,
then what's wrong if China defeated MONGOLIA  and took all land of MONGOLIA?
china had made it ,so korea is part of china.
is that right,body?
Most important of all,that ming gave up korea is the same case as
chin gave up taiwan.
IF your country is the legal successor of these dynasty,
and you must get back korea,then it's resonable to take back taiwan:)
: : 果然是典型中國人的阿Q邏輯
:    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: How do you know who is typical and who is not?
: It's not friendly to say somebody like this.

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 218.170.58.37
※ 編輯: kehn            來自: 218.170.58.37        (05/08 03:26)
※ 編輯: kehn            來自: 218.170.58.37        (05/08 03:43)
※ 編輯: kehn            來自: 218.170.58.37        (05/08 04:12)

> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <

作者: body (Miracle) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: 中國與台灣的歷史關系ꄊ時間: Sat May  8 05:56:47 2004

※ 引述《kehn (奇怪的牛)》之銘言：
: ※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: :    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: : Please make some sense:
: : If Japan defeated China and took all land of China,
: : then what's wrong if China defeat Japan and take all land of Japan?
: look back on what you wrote,body.
: MONGOLIA defeated china and took all land of China,
: then what's wrong if China defeated MONGOLIA  and took all land of MONGOLIA?
: china had made it ,so korea is part of china.

Korea was annexed into Yuan dynasty in a way that their kings
and aristocracy were kept intact and remained in power, though
subjugated to the center Yuan government.

There are many history records which showed that the Korean government
(Koryo court) remained functional during the whole Yuan dynasty.

Although submissive to the Great Khan, the kings of Korea were still able
to exercise political control over the kingdom through an aristocratic
council known as Todang.

Yuan was able to dethrone a korean king and enthrone another, however,
the Koryo court itself became more anti-Yuan and finally seperated from Yuan.


: is that right,body?
: Most important of all,that ming gave up korea is the same case as
: chin gave up taiwan.

In the case of Taiwan, it's very different from Korea:

1) Taiwan was not able to preserve its own government when it became
part of ROC after World War II. The original Japanese government
was evicted and have not been able to exercise any political control
since then.

2) ROC has never "enthrone" any local government.

: IF your country is the legal successor of these dynasty,
: and you must get back korea,then it's resonable to take back taiwan:)
: :    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: : How do you know who is typical and who is not?
: : It's not friendly to say somebody like this.

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) 
◆ From: 65.169.145.68

> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <

作者: Geigemachen (reverie of cavalry) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: 中國與台灣的歷史關系ꄊ時間: Sat May  8 07:02:26 2004

: 2) ROC has never "enthrone" any local government.

Your statement is somehow right...

ROC had "enthroned" a "central" government in 2000 and
will do it again on May 20 in 2004 ...

You owe me a response on the same issue...

--
    ___
   6@_@9
   4| |7
    2 5

讓我先想一想......

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) 
◆ From: 61.230.51.186
→ body:Good argument. My wife wants me back...
→ body:However, don't you think it's too late?
→ Geigemachen:You said right, that's why DPP exists:p
→ Geigemachen:It's early in the morning :P
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <

作者: kehn (奇怪的牛) 看板: CrossStrait
標題: Re: 中國與台灣的歷史關系ꄊ時間: Sat May  8 15:19:41 2004

※ 引述《body (Miracle)》之銘言：
: ※ 引述《kehn (奇怪的牛)》之銘言：
: : look back on what you wrote,body.
: : MONGOLIA defeated china and took all land of China,
: : then what's wrong if China defeated MONGOLIA  and took all land of MONGOLIA?
: : china had made it ,so korea is part of china.
: Korea was annexed into Yuan dynasty in a way that their kings
: and aristocracy were kept intact and remained in power, though
: subjugated to the center Yuan government.
: There are many history records which showed that the Korean government
: (Koryo court) remained functional during the whole Yuan dynasty.
: Although submissive to the Great Khan, the kings of Korea were still able
: to exercise political control over the kingdom through an aristocratic
: council known as Todang.
很奇怪
圖明明就顯示韓國是元朝的一部分
元朝皇帝當然是視其為自己的正式領土
而你認為的並不改變韓國是元朝的一部分的事實
不然我亦可以說烏克蘭不屬於蘇聯因為他仍以烏克蘭社會主義共和國存在
這說的通嗎?
: Yuan was able to dethrone a korean king and enthrone another, however,
: the Koryo court itself became more anti-Yuan and finally seperated from Yuan.
: : is that right,body?
: : Most important of all,that ming gave up korea is the same case as
: : chin gave up taiwan.
: In the case of Taiwan, it's very different from Korea:
: 1) Taiwan was not able to preserve its own government when it became
: part of ROC after World War II. The original Japanese government
: was evicted and have not been able to exercise any political control
: since then.
回去好好研讀舊金山條約懶得再說
: 2) ROC has never "enthrone" any local government.
你指的ROC最遲最遲可以說在總統直選後已經在占據地滅亡
因他只由臺灣人選出而非原本憲法(沒包括臺灣)說的由中國和蒙古人選出
是故現在是不同國家了只是名字恰好一樣
要不然中國應該主張自己是元朝的繼承者
當然有權宣稱領有朝鮮
就像他們宣稱自己是ROC的繼承者是故有權領有臺灣一樣
: : IF your country is the legal successor of these dynasty,
: : and you must get back korea,then it's resonable to take back taiwan:)

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 218.170.63.93
※ 編輯: kehn            來自: 218.170.63.93        (05/08 15:43)
→ Melancholy23:kehn兄觀點新穎  切中要害