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作者Adlay ()
看板Eng-Class
標題Re: 所謂『正統』的語言使用
時間Sun Aug 12 20:21:51 2007
※ 引述《finavir (楚葛)》之銘言： : How you use language tells people a good deal about who you are, : how you think, and how you communicate. Making simple errors in : written and spoken English can make you seem less sophisticated-- : even less intelligent--than you really are. : 我會希望在學英文的人都能把這個語言學好。 : 先學了所謂的『正統』英文，你才有能力和資格再去談 pidgin/ creole : 怎麼說呢，要擊敗你的敵人，就要先了解熟悉和master他的語言。 : ﹝我不是瞧不起華人也不是討厭白人。 : 我有所謂的identity crisis，這個有點複雜，跟是不是移民也沒有關係﹞ : 也不希望有正在學英文的EFL人士被先前討論的某些內容誤導；再來就是， : 我想大概跟我唸過語言批判(discourse analysis)和文化研究有關吧，對 : 於語言的運用和存在於語言本身的權力關係很敏感。尤其當我本身又是白 : 人社會中的少數族裔。 我想再次申明，原文作者在國外的環境當中， 受到的壓力自然比我們來的強烈， 我很同情這樣的處境，但是卻不能同意正統英文的立論 (不針對人針對事)... 最後一點論述是關於第二語言學習或外語學習來說... 坦白說，雖然以前修過幾學分這方面的課程，但不敢說是這方面的專家， 有誤還望方家指正.... 據我所知，第二語言學習根本無法達到第一語言百分之百的雷同， 尤其是發音方面.... 前人做過的研究，即使從小在美國出生長大的拉丁裔雙語人士， 也就是同時以英語和西班牙語為母語的人， 他們在雙唇暴塞音(bilabial fricative)[p]有關的單字發音上， 聲帶震動和雙唇開啟的時間差(VOT)跟只會英語的人士仍舊不同.... 換句話說，連雙語人士在發音上都不可能百分之百與單語人士相同， 更遑論第二語言或是外語的學習者.... 並非說發音的學習因為達不到百分之百所以不重要， 而是，只要在不妨礙溝通的條件下， 第二語言或外語學習者口音上的差異不必要非除去不可.... 如果過度強調發音的標準， 容易造成學生的焦慮感和挫折感，學者普遍認為這些情感因素有礙英語學習... 就第二語言跟外語學習者來說，有太多東西要學， 例如，溝通技巧、文化了解等，而偏偏人一生的歲月有限， 花過多的時間和金錢投資在發音上反而有礙其他方面的學習.... 一個好的外交官，不見得要發音百分之百像外國人， 但是卻要有高度的溝通技巧和文化熟悉度.... 相反的，英語新聞的播報人士，可能發音就要多下工夫... -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 123.0.202.192
推 Lovetech:我看過之前的爭執文 我想那位f板友並不是要人學英文處 08/12 20:35
→ Lovetech:處跟native speaker一樣 而是要抱著以"學習別人語言"的 08/12 20:35
→ Lovetech:尊重方式學習 不是自己來自創文法 然後對於明顯的錯誤 08/12 20:36
→ Lovetech:以"反正我是台灣人 世界各國人講英文都是不同講法"的態度 08/12 20:37
推 Lovetech:打混或沾沾自喜 再容我拿學中文來說 應該不會有老外學 08/12 20:39
→ Lovetech:中文是以"反正怎麼用大家都聽得懂"的心態來學習 我覺得 08/12 20:40
→ Lovetech:板上某個英文明顯出了很大問題的人 卻是抱這樣的態度來 08/12 20:41
→ Lovetech:拿那種態度來教人 或是 反駁別人 舉些連我都覺得也許他該 08/12 20:41
→ Lovetech:去修一下基本文法 那種人會有那樣的態度 就是因為不把 08/12 20:42
→ Lovetech:英文當自己在用的語言 (之於中文對於華人) 所以才會覺得 08/12 20:43
→ Lovetech:學一些奇怪的腔沒關係 沒體會到語言對於自己的重要性 08/12 20:43
推 lovelyvv:在esl環境下.約有30%的人最後可以達到ns的境界.. 08/12 20:49
→ lovelyvv:是指外語學習者.且年紀沒想像中的影響大..別戰我.. 08/12 20:49
→ lovelyvv:我知道critical perid跟accent的一些研..究但我選擇 08/12 20:50
→ lovelyvv:使用我想相信的研究報告.. 08/12 20:51
→ lovelyvv:我也同意..english應該要加以複數化,englishes. 08/12 20:52
→ lovelyvv:但在學習上.還是先學好嚴謹的正確用法.因為.. 08/12 20:52
→ lovelyvv:要破壞遊戲拙 則之前,要先把對方的遊戲規則摸清楚 08/12 20:53
推 djnospam:And the point is not how you say it -- it's how you 08/12 23:15
→ djnospam:use it. (Use good English, not try to "pronounce" 08/12 23:16
→ djnospam:like a native speaker) 08/12 23:17
→ djnospam:Of course, it's good if you can. 08/12 23:17
推 berubeula:我個人覺得"正統"兩字非常爭議 應以"正確"替代為宜 08/12 23:31
→ berubeula:"正統"兩字所隱含的優越和歧視 個人不敢領教 08/12 23:42
→ julians:correctness doesn't make things better; it actually 08/12 23:47
→ julians:is a much more straight demand for normalization 08/12 23:47
推 berubeula:或者F原PO能對所謂 正統/非正統 作更清楚的釋義??? 08/12 23:52
推 julians:it has been clear; what is standard is commonly 08/13 00:02
→ julians:acceptable use of language; the commonness and accepta 08/13 00:02
→ julians:bility come from the correct way of usage.... 08/13 00:02
推 berubeula:我以為F原PO內文所表達的 比較接近"正確""正常""ㄧ般" 08/13 00:01
推 berubeula:OK J兄 我們看法ㄧ致了 ^^ 08/13 00:05
推 julians:I don't know....it's weird to stay at the stage of 08/13 00:18
→ julians:defining what a standard/correct way of using a lg. 08/13 00:19
→ julians:w/o questioning the power structure and hegemony 08/13 00:19
→ julians:working behind... 08/13 00:19
推 berubeula:J兄的說法 讓我想起"英語帝國"ㄧ書 ^^" 08/13 00:30
推 julians:Sure. And David Crystal's _Global English_ 08/13 00:52
→ julians:somewhat I find it an argument not that cogent or 08/13 00:52
→ julians:thorough when it neglects the constructivist turn to 08/13 00:52
→ julians:the formation of the standard/way of using a lg. 08/13 00:53
推 julians:Anyone with the background of Foucault, Judith Butler, 08/13 02:11
→ julians:or Marxism can seeminlgy provide a deconstructionist 08/13 02:11
→ julians:reading of the ideology intrinsic to "linguistic co- 08/13 02:11
→ julians:rrectness." 08/13 02:12
推 finavir:http://individual.utoronto.ca/ANT427_F06/ 08/13 02:14
→ finavir:I took the course last year. I'd also add Antonio 08/13 02:16
→ finavir:Gramsci. He was the one who came up with the concept 08/13 02:17
→ finavir:of hegemony. 08/13 02:17
→ julians:I know..........it's almost a common knowledge to 08/13 02:18
→ julians:a student training in sociology, literary study, po- 08/13 02:21
→ julians:litical science, and even just human sciences, isn't 08/13 02:22
→ julians:it? 08/13 02:22
推 julians:By the way, personally I don't think it's a good idea 08/13 02:25
→ julians:to show people what courses we have taken. It looks 08/13 02:25
→ julians:like showing off. I think a reference to the academic 08/13 02:26
→ julians:background, such as sociology, anthropology, has been 08/13 02:26
→ julians:sufficient to identify ourselves. After all, it's an 08/13 02:27
→ julians:interdisciplinary time. It shocks people more if 08/13 02:27
→ julians:those from the aforesaid disciplines do not know 08/13 02:28
→ julians:hegemony is introduced by Gramsci and elaborated by 08/13 02:28
→ julians:bunches of philosophers and sociologists. 08/13 02:28
推 finavir:Alright, so I didn't take the course. I was just 08/13 02:29
→ finavir:providing some info in case there might be people who 08/13 02:30
→ finavir:want to look into the subject. 08/13 02:30
推 julians:Sure, that's great. But I checked the website, but it 08/13 02:35
→ julians:only says that the reading assignments are mainly in 08/13 02:35
→ julians:the course pack; I can only see the recommended read- 08/13 02:35
→ julians:ings XD (though it has a lot of interesting stuff!) 08/13 02:36
推 finavir:Some of the readings can be accessed electronically 08/13 02:37
→ finavir:if you have access to instituional subscription (at 08/13 02:38
→ finavir:your school, if you're a student). Um, the prof also 08/13 02:39
→ finavir:posted some of the studet essays and response papers 08/13 02:40
→ finavir:online. 08/13 02:40
→ finavir:individual.utoronto.ca/ANT427_F06/positions.html 08/13 02:42
→ finavir:for a list of response papers. 08/13 02:42
推 finavir:Also check out van Dijk: http://www.discourses.org/ 08/13 02:45
推 Renyin:very good discussion..希望能M 08/14 13:50