[情報] Garen修正說明(from Xypherous

[colmash (col)]

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=28099045#post28099045

http://goo.gl/V177k
聽說今天是週末...(遠目


Sure, I can explain some of the changes that are on PBE. I won't take credit
for all the changes as Statikk and Scarizard also contributed quite a bit to
the Garen work.

As a disclaimer, changes on PBE don't reflect the final status of things and
can be changed at any notice.

The common thread in these changes is generally going to be the fact:

1. Garen needs counterplay in lane.
2. Garen's power curve is extremely rough - overpowering early game with
awkward scaling.
3. Garen's itemization is pretty awkward - You have the walk the tightrope
between offense and defense to be relevant.


這次主導Garen修正的是Xypherous,Statikk,Scarizard 這三位
然後PBE上的修正不代表真的會上線
這次的修正是針對三個面向
1.Garen撐線期要有辦法反制他
2.Garen的威力曲線很差-早期太過OP,然後有著很慘的數值加成
3.Garen的道具選擇也很差-你要在攻擊面和防禦面上走一條很細的鋼索.


One of the things we wanted to focus on was how much Garen's opponents could
influence the Garen matchup. By making his passive only break on
champion/tower damage, Garen's opponents now *must* rely on their damage to
break Garen's regeneration hold - instead of psuedorandom events like minion
aggro and such.

When we first did this change, we noticed that Garen's passive seemed to be
up all the time now. Triaging further into this revealed that in trades,
Garen's passive was most likely turned off by a floating ranged minion attack
rather than attacks from his opponents - hence the increased delay on
reactivation was to both compensate for this fact and so that his opponents
were more rewarded on breaking his passive.



有個要強調的事情是我們希望跟Garen對線的玩家要能夠靠自己去影響Garen.
靠著讓他的被動改成只能被英雄/塔(還有野怪)來中斷,Garen的敵人現在要靠自己來
中止Garen的回血,而不是靠他砍完你後吸到小兵的炮火那類的.

當我們剛作完這個修正,我們發現Garen的被動好像跟永遠存在都不會退一樣,
這代表著Garen的被動絕大多數時候都是被遠程小兵給打斷的,而不是他對面的玩家-
針對這個現像,結論是只要直接增加被動的觸發時間,
應該就夠鼓勵他對面的玩家主動去打斷被動回血了.


The net effect of Garen's play pattern in lane was rush at you, silence you -
preventing counterplay and then spin for the full duration on top of you.
However, the slower movement speed at early ranks meant that this was pretty
much all it was good for: Rushing at people in lane and spin on them.

While it's a decent play pattern - the fact that your opponent has very few
responses to this in general (being silenced and slower than you for 4
seconds) meant that the ability couldn't meaningfully scale early and that
the cooldown had to be long at early ranks simply due to how few responses
your opponent could have to it.

Why the Slow Break on Q and not the W?

Mostly because Garen relies on using the slow break more than once per fight.
Having the Slow Break on the 'W', in testing, turned out to be a net nerf to
Garen overall - as he couldn't repeatedly cleanse slows later on in fights.

Won't this nerf his initiation power by forcing him to save it for the slow
break?

In general, I haven't found this to be a problem because, while 35% spammable
move speed is indeed quite strong - there are other ways around this problem
that the Garen player can opt into that's equally strong. Ghostblade's
Active, Summoner Ghost, Summoner Flash or Trinity Force can all serve to
overcome this.


Garen撐線時期的打法在結論上看起來就是衝過去=>沉默你=>不讓你反制
然後轉完全部的時間.
在遊戲早期緩慢的移動速度,對衝向線上的敵人然後轉他四秒這件事帶來更大的好處.

當然這是一個合理的玩法-除了你的對手很難作啥反應之外
(被沉默,然後四秒內都跑的比你慢).
這也代表著這個技能在早期的CD不能太短,加成也不能太高,因為你的敵人對抗的方法太少
.

為啥現在破緩是放在Q,而不是W?
主要原因是因為Garen一次戰鬥中可能會有兩次以上的破緩需求.
把破緩放在W上面整體來講會是對Garen的nerf-因為在會戰後期他沒辦法解掉緩慢效果.

這樣的修正不會讓他為了保留破緩效果而失去開戰的威力嗎?
基本上我不認為這是個問題-35%可以一直用的跑速當然很強沒錯-
不過還是有其他方法讓Garen的玩家達到一樣的強度.
發動鬼刀,招喚師技能的鬼步,閃現,或者是三向之力都能用來克服這些問題.



Why the shift on Armor and Magic Resistance?

In general - we found this was doubly snowbally for the Garen player in a lot
of ways. Either he would win the lane - and then dominate because of his free
armor and magic resistance from farming - or he would lose the early lane and
then be unable to take advantage of his resistances at all.

By shifting to a percentage basis - the incentive is for the Garen player to
itemize smartly against his opponent - if he faces a heavy physical/magical
character, he can now prioritize rushing items to counter their offense - or
build heavy offense if he feels like he's winning.

Why Tenacity rather than Slow Reduction?

Honestly, CC% reduction only on slows was kind of a weird mechanic to begin
with. By making it more global, Garen stands a better chance against the
field.

Plus, Merc Threads are kind of required on Garen at the moment, unfortunately.

So... what's the point of Courage?

To give him a 6 second defensive juggernaut form to do what needs to be done
- if he chooses to rank it.


為什麼要改掉(W)物防魔防的加成方式?
因為基本上原本的作用方式會是個雙向的雪球-要就是贏線,然後農兵,疊高物魔防.
要就是早期輸線,然後完全無法在抗性上取得任何優勢.

靠著把(W)改成現有數字的加成,能夠讓會挑防裝的garen玩家
在聰明的選裝後達到更大的效果.
如果碰到物傷/魔傷很高的敵人,那可以出對應的防裝來加倍反制.
如果覺的已經是優勢了,可以出攻擊裝來擴大戰果.

為啥是改成加軔性,而不是原本的減少緩速效果?
老實講,只對緩速有效的降場控效果是很怪的機制.
靠著讓它更加全面性,Garen在戰場上會有更好的機會.
除此之外..很不幸的水銀鞋對Garen現在來講算是必要物品,

那這樣的話(W)技是為啥存在的?
給Garen六秒的進攻能力,讓他能夠作他想作的事-如果有點這招的話.


Okay, so let's get the negative out of the way first, because it's probably
the weirdest one and the most ebil one:

Slowed when Garen's center passes through minion.

This is for lane counterplay entirely. The current situation is that if you
are last-hitting near melee, Garen innately has better pathing and the
ability to instantly spin on your face with little recourse. Minions are a
very important lane control and lane dynamic to master - and thus introducing
some minion interaction seemed important.

Why remove the slow break / cleanse here?

Ultimately - this is the change I'm most certain that we'll need to track
over time but the core of it was that a slow shouldn't force Garen to burn
one of his most damaging moves to do so. While I understand that there was
ways to play this correctly - I'm not sure this was the best play pattern to
have your highest damaging skill being your slow break skill. It generally
lead to players feeling that Bladestorm needed to do more damage because
you'd always waste some of it.

Wait, what Critical Strike Synergy?

In short - since most of Judgements damage in the ratio rather than the base,
the critical strike bonus from the ability applies to more of the damage
overall.


現在來討論(E)技改變中最被垢病的一點-穿過小兵時緩速

這是為了撐線期的反制設計的.目前的情況是如果你近身尾刀小兵.
Garen能夠馬上用較佳的路徑甩到你臉上然後轉你四秒,還不用浪費太多資源.
小兵在撐線和線上動態是很重要的因素-而這樣的改變會讓和小兵之間的互動變的更重要.

為啥要移掉(E)轉轉原本的破緩/破場控效果?

這點是我認為我們最該長期觀察的重點,
不過目前來講這是為了讓Garen不要因為被緩速就放掉他最重要的傷害來源.
我發現這修正之前常常是最好的模式-用傷害最高的技能來破掉緩速效果.
這會讓玩家常常覺的(E)的轉轉需要更多的傷害力,因為他們浪費掉它在破緩上.

為啥會有暴擊加成?

長話短說-既然(E)的傷害主要是來自加成而不是初始傷害,
爆擊的加成能夠提供更多的傷害.


Cooldown scaling?

So I've been thinking about our resourceless fighters for a bit and when I
get to them - I suspect I'll apply the same logic to them when we can get to
them. Resourceless fighters have huge advantages over resource-limited ones
simply due to the fact that they can spam all their spells continuously.
There should be some kind of trade-off for their ability to continuously
generate advantage in lane due to their spammable spells.

My thinking currently right now is that they should pay for this continuous
lane advantage with longer early ultimate cooldowns. They have more
individual windows to spam their skills but they should be far more limited
in huge game reversals (This is a major problem on Riven, for example)
because short cooldowns with short cooldown ultimates make them functionally
undiveable *and* gives them way too many opportunities to crush you with both
ultimates and free spells.

I actually wanted Garen's late game CD to be much lower (like 60 seconds) but
cooler heads prevailed.

Conclusions

In short: Garen should have better itemization scaling, more itemization
options due to critical strike working better and the ability to build damage
and his opponents should be able to play around his abilities better.


大絕的CD修正?(早期變長,後期變短)

關於無消耗型的英雄我有不少想法,
然後我覺的如果有機會的話我會把同樣的邏輯用到同類的英雄身上.
無消耗英雄有超巨大的優勢-能夠連續一直用他們的技能而不用考慮消耗.
為此他們必然要有點代價-因為技能一直丟在撐線期能帶來太多的優勢.

以目前來說我覺的他們要負出的代價是大絕CD變長.
短CD的大絕和無消耗的技能組合會在撐線期給他們(主要是雷紋,舉例來講)
在線上太多的機會來壓死敵人.
過短的大絕CD也會讓它和其他技能合在一起變成不能塔殺的狀況.

我事實上是很希望Garen大絕在後期有夠短的CD,像是60秒這樣,不過有比較冷靜的腦袋佔
了優勢.

結論:
Garen得到更好的裝備加成,也因為爆擊加成的效果有了更好的裝備選擇權.
他的敵人在和他撐線時的表現也會因為技能的修正表現的更好

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◆ From: 219.85.64.11
→ jerry50411  :樓下幫推
推 hasroten    :Riot對老英雄還是很有心的
推 azer7890    :看完了,蓋倫已死
推 abccbaandy  :出一個AD型的技能吸血他就升天了...
推 linceass    :Aren't u thankful?
推 kunda       :Riot說的跟做的有段落差吧 E吃AD加成變少 前期變痛?
推 CETOR       :感覺是分點檢討然後湊一起就...
→ kunda       :開頭三個修正面向 只有1達成 就是更多的英雄不怕蓋倫
→ colmash     :我把Xypher回的地方挑出來變這樣.OTL
推 azer7890    :搔不到痛處的一堆更動,只是讓蓋倫連前期一起無用而已
→ kunda       :2改完 e吃加成變少 前期變痛 是說本來AD scale就不低
推 k9k2k7k0    :感覺蓋倫能出的裝還是很少阿
推 kunda       :他大概覺得w改那樣會想讓大家多出 ar mr裝吧 orz
推 Dimitre     :後期超廢 這能改掉嗎
推 newfreshman :雷玟表示:
→ colmash     :        準備中槍
推 ASKA028     :自己說過不希望只靠NERF這種白痴作法來維持平衡
→ frankie30432:反正現在garen是大家眼中的廢角 有想動刀就是好事
→ ASKA028     :又說改弱轉蓋倫就什麼都沒有 說一套還是做一套
推 kunda       :更悲情的是 以後Q到人開轉 1.5秒後對方就可以閃走;;
→ colmash     :我自己是覺的這次算大修,不能用buff/nerf來看就是..
→ colmash     :remake都是沒玩個幾個月看不出強度在那..
→ frankie30432:同意col的看法
→ kunda       :如果是其他腳色可能是這樣吧 蓋倫技能組這麼簡單..
→ kunda       :真的需要去玩幾個禮拜才知道強度在哪嘛?
→ frankie30432:都還沒正式出場 還有變數阿
推 lp2348      :靠杯那如果出個死刑宣告打他一下不就廢掉他被動18秒
→ WarIII      :正常一隻角色有沒有活起來 大概一個星期就知道了
→ WarIII      :就現在Remake的英雄經驗來說 一個星期就知道
→ kunda       :也是 照他們方針來看 應該還很多要改的地方
→ WarIII      :但是 是生是死沒有真正上市倒是很難說
推 azer7890    :不知道耶...大家覺得eve跟圖奇有活起來嗎?
推 chrisvzxs   :eve中路還可以
→ hasroten    :eve算不錯吧 老鼠好像已死
推 azer7890    :我覺得eve隱形被動一整個雞肋化,圖奇已死
eve的隱形被動其實蠻有梗的..
發揮的空間還不少其實..
那個偵查距離感覺是精算過的..
然後中路打roam 幫上下路gank超強
→ frankie30432:REMAKE過的大多都是成功的好嗎
推 lp2348      :EVE中路不會被電飛喔@@
→ azer7890    :那要看怎麼定義成功吧...圖奇跟以前差異不大
→ azer7890    :不如說圖奇的隱形沒辦法跟以前一樣有奇襲效果了
→ frankie30432:我沒有說老鼠成功 只是大多數修改之後都成功
→ frankie30432:還有好幾隻改玩OP的 所以根本不用太擔心
→ azer7890    :那就看看蓋倫吧...都還沒出來爭這個沒意思-W-
→ hasroten    :大多數remake完至少都算buff
推 shirman     :誰說一星期就看的出來 JAX剛從手術房出來被吐得要死
推 azer7890    :蓋倫所處的上路整體環境太嚴苛了,個人覺得很難改阿
→ shirman     :版面上天天都是JAX已死的推文  現在咧? 超級上路路霸
推 Dimitre     :Jax的確以前比較強阿...
推 kunda       :Jax跟Kayle的確是動了手術身體反而更虛弱的例子
→ frankie30432:因為之前太OP阿...
推 gully       :今天的colmash失去水準，錯字好多 XD
我一直都覺的我的水準很差就是惹..OTL
只是有些東西好像沒弄不行..
如果同樣的東西有人能翻完讓我借轉我會更感謝啊XDDDD
如果讓台灣的玩家一直被大陸網站來源的東西荼毒也不是個辦法...
對面太愛放芭樂消息了..
我永遠不會忘記那個冬之爪..OTL
→ frankie30432:GP ALISTAR  SIVIR RYZE TRYN 改完都OP
推 shirman     :JAX以前要到12等還要有裝的情況下才能當大魔王
→ frankie30432:蠻王剛改完板上還有蠻王之亂 說打不贏eve 結果op
→ frankie30432:EVE之前改完也OP 我忘了算不算是REMAKE
→ shirman     :現在撐線可以直接噴對面滿臉屎
推 hasroten    :以前的台版是鰻王聯盟阿(遠目
推 kunda       :蠻王聯盟那時候已經remake了- -
→ shirman     :要比的話 新JAX絕對可以壓到舊JAX出不了裝
→ kunda       :新jax低等體質比舊Jax也強太多....
→ frankie30432:所以改完的腳色有一半以上OP
→ lorence810  :不過以前的JAX無腦出雙攻裝血就超厚了
→ greatodin   :GP死透了
→ shirman     :GP重製之後威了很長很長一段時間直到nerf大刀揮下
推 hasroten    :GP明明就是這幾次NERF跟暴擊天賦改掉才死的...
→ WarIII      :GP快回來了 不用擔心 有新SKIN 就不會被遺棄
噓 forsakesheep:要nerf蓋輪怎麼不先nerf雷玟.......
推 k9k2k7k0    :不要NERF雷玟啊
推 lpca        :雷玟比賽出場率又不高...
推 kunda       :其實他們是想buff蓋倫 只是不知怎麼搞的變成nerf lol
推 genesys75   :kunda一語道破
推 hasroten    :也不算是 是想nerf前期 buff後期 不過平衡很難抓
→ fewhy       :會說nerf的人應該也只是看E的傷害吧
→ fewhy       :E的算法是真的有點奇怪
推 kennyru04wj4:蓋侖如果連前期都被nerf.. 怎麼會有後期
推 kunda       :Q沉默時間不算nerf嗎?一級r cd改長?
推 k9k2k7k0    :今天PBE雙嗜血 IE 耳語
推 asagi777    :只有我不覺得這是nerf嗎? 感覺大家還存在既定玩法的
推 polas       :過去有多少重製後op的,釋出前/剛釋出被ptt講得像T6角
→ k9k2k7k0    :打AI機器人還是很抓癢 200多
→ asagi777    :印象，我覺得蓋倫的可能性被拓寬了不少。
→ kunda       :因為e 吃ad係數變少 後期沒以前痛啊 ;;
推 s81j81js    :不覺得是nerf+1 至少有比較多的裝備變化 能坦or能打
推 kunda       :蓋倫什麼時候能坦了 5火斗逼對面不得不打他的時候?
推 rekkaleo    :以前火斗神教蓋倫的確是這樣a過去就贏了XD
→ fleeaaa     :蓋侖這樣改也太強了吧 希望不要是我想的那樣
推 kennyru04wj4:火斗能疊 ??
→ h45279802   :放心 你怎樣想都沒人在意
→ polas       :很久以前可以疊
推 k9k2k7k0    :傅大師(上香)
→ polas       :那時候Garen只要買兩件火斗走進去敵陣就(ry
推 swbthj      :Master fle
→ rekkaleo    :以前火斗教的美好很多人都不懂的  5個人25件多爽XDD
推 acopika     :坦克聯盟 5個坦克 20件火斗
推 TZUKI       :傅大師XDDDDDDDDDDD
推 lpca        :以前OP的東西一大堆 但講也沒用呀(挖鼻) 回不去了
推 Yierhmo     :如果傅大師真的一語成讖 這篇就有趣了..
推 FrienDx     :傅立葉大師預言了!!
※ 編輯: colmash         來自: 114.32.178.201       (08/11 22:35)
→ cpaladin    :最近的remake只有趙總管成功, 其他都是病人死亡居多
→ cpaladin    :Garen我看大概也差不多....
→ jokermask   :原本就已經爛到沒人要用,還改弱前期= =
→ TZUKI       :我是覺得eve比之前好非常多 圖奇就...RIP
推 imut        :第233行  舉"例"而非舉"莉"
→ colmash     :只要機製重調有弄好,數字調整都好處理其實..
※ 編輯: colmash         來自: 114.32.178.201       (08/11 23:13)
→ cpaladin    :eve比之前好是因為之前已經爛到谷底了啊 XD
推 hasroten    :傅立葉 有神快拜
推 evildark    :蓋倫那個成長曲線的確該改  不過這次是改回頭路
推 wulouise    :應該還有得調
→ Vanbery     :光轉轉轉碰小兵會緩就有點想太多了...
→ colmash     :garen現在的版本早期傷害根本是有病..
→ colmash     :會對早期開刀/加強後期還蠻正常的吧..
推 kunda       :可是他這樣改 早期傷害更高了啊 .....
→ colmash     :傷害調整,可是不是這麼容易完全發揮
→ vi5417      :新E的成長曲線太低了 主力傷害技卻變不痛
→ vi5417      :增加AD ratio應該會比較好 至少讓攻擊裝有意義
推 aidenlarse  :如果0.9額外AD屬實，那傷害會突破天際 哈哈
→ GXIII       :so gay
→ greatodin   :這樣改打的贏超級小兵嗎?
→ evildark    :新E就是以前的tanky dps garen  不過eu下adc太痛了..
→ evildark    :能不能重防禦面和攻擊面找到一個均衡點  還很難說
→ love4351304 :這不就是riven op nerf garen..
推 jujustine83 :R後期打人還是不痛啊......
→ vi5417      :早就測過了 沒有什麼0.9額外AD
→ lbowlbow    :東之瓜~
→ lbowlbow    :哇咧，連我都錯字？而且我還不是用注音輸入囧
推 allensheng  :再說一次前面％數我用角色本身AD去算 0.9算額外
→ allensheng  :出來的結果是完全符合數據的
→ ASKA028     :某F那是瞎扯蛋吧 改都還沒改成型 能預測個妹
→ hardyuse    :已收入精華區