[情報] Bonds, Clemens belong in the HOF

[abc12812 ()]

http://tinyurl.com/bf556kl

Barry Bonds was the first name I checked on my Hall of Fame ballot.

Bonds是我第一個填在選票上的名字

Roger Clemens was the second name I checked.

Clemens是第二個

Sammy Sosa was the third.

Sosa是第三個

There was no hesitation. No moment of wavering. Didn't even blink.

完全沒有猶豫

Bonds, a seven-time MVP, might have been the greatest baseball player since
Babe Ruth. Clemens, a seven-time Cy Young Award winner, was one of the most
dominant pitchers of the last 50 years. Sosa, the only man to hit 60 or more
homers in three seasons, was one of the most prolific home run hitters we've
ever seen.

一個七度MVP 一個七屆賽揚獎 一個三度60轟

Oh, the steroids debate?

類固醇?

None ever failed a drug test after Major League Baseball implemented testing
in 2004. They were never suspended by MLB for steroids, human growth hormone,
amphetamines or any other performance-enhancing drugs.

從2004藥檢以來全都過關了 沒被禁賽過

 Clemens was exonerated on perjury charges for lying about steroid use in
federal court. Bonds also beat perjury charges and was convicted only on an
obstruction-of-justice charge that he's appealing.

Clemens的官司勝了 Bonds的偽證也勝了

Do I still believe they cheated? Absolutely.

我相信他們作弊嗎? 當然

Do I have proof? No.

有證據嗎? 沒有

Do I have strong suspicions that Mike Piazza and Jeff Bagwell cheated after
witnessing their colossal changes in body type and performance? Absolutely.

Do I have any proof, beyond the whispers of teammates and close friends?
Nope, sure don't.

我也強烈懷疑Piazza/Bagwell 但同樣也沒有證據

Piazza, the greatest hitting catcher in baseball history, is a Hall of Famer.
Bagwell had a Hall of Fame career and eventually will be inducted.

Rafael Palmeiro is the only player on this year's ballot who for certain
tested positive for steroids. His positive came two months before he reached
the magical 3,000-hit plateau, July 15, 2005. Major League Baseball was well
aware of the test result. He was permitted to play while he secretly
appealed, and MLB celebrated his historic 3,000-hit feat two weeks before his
10-day suspension.

Palmeiro insists to this day he did nothing wrong, that the positive must
have come from a tainted B-12 shot administered by teammate Miguel Tejada.
Few seem to believe him. He has never received more than 12.6% of the Hall of
Fame vote.

I don't believe him either, but as one of only four players in baseball
history to attain at least 3,000 hits and 500 homers, he gets my vote.

Palmeiro被禁賽後表示他只是不小心打錯藥 我不相信 但三千安五百轟 夠了

Simply, I refuse to exclude players who used performance-enhancing drugs from
the Baseball Hall of Fame. It doesn't matter if they were suspected, caught,
indicted or admitted their use on national TV. I don't care if Bonds or
Clemens came out tomorrow and divulged every detail of their steroid use. Or
Piazza informed everyone how a 62nd-round draft pick could possibly hit .250
with six homers in his second year in the minors and three years later hit 35
homers for the Los Angeles Dodgers. They still get my vote.

簡單的說 我不在乎有沒有用藥

The Baseball Hall of Fame is not a cathedral. It is a museum of the history
of the game.

名人堂是歷史博物館 不是教堂

And these players were the greatest of their era. It just so happens to be
the steroid era.

而這些都是當代最好的球員 只是生在類固醇時代

Many were using the finest drugs available to enhance their own performance,
and, in turn, they improved their team's chances of winning. Name a World
Series champion from the last 25 years, and I'll name you at least one player
strongly suspected of using steroids on that team.

用藥求勝的球員太多了

We don't take away their trophy. We don't put an asterisk by their name or
forfeit their regular-season victories like the NCAA. The San Francisco
Giants' World Series championship wasn't celebrated any less because Melky
Cabrera played two-thirds of the season before flunking his drug test.

我們不會因為毒奶的貢獻就貶低巨人的冠軍

Look, if steroids were available 50 years ago, some of the game's greatest
players -- Bob Gibson, for one --say they likely would have taken them. Their
drug of choice was amphetamines, with trainers passing them out like candy.
They were also illegal to have without a prescription, but of the 59 living
Hall of Fame players, you can fit in a broom closet the ones who never
consumed a greenie.

現在有類固醇 以前有安非他命 很多名人堂球員就用過

The truth is that baseball's general managers and their coaching staffs never
had a problem with players using performance-enhancing drugs. (And given how
easily Cabrera scored a two-year, $16 million contract from the Toronto Blue
Jays this offseason, they still don't.)

GM和教練也不在乎用藥

PED users were typically the most dedicated players on the team. They worked
out more than most. They were the ones most concerned about nutrition. They
got their sleep.

打藥的通常是最認真的球員 他們注重營養 作息規律

The only time baseball's executives really got angry was when they signed or
traded for a player who was using performance-enhancing drugs, stopped taking
them and saw his performance plummet.

只有當他們停止用藥表現下滑時 球團才會生氣

It's baseball. Pitchers scuff or spit on the ball until they get caught.
Hitters cork their bats. Managers and coaches steal signs. GMs try to find
loopholes in the draft and waiver wire. Prospects lie about their age.
Cheating will always be a part of baseball.

作弊一直是棒球的一部份

 "Guys have always been cheating, period,'' Gibson said three years ago on
the Mike and Mike in the Morning show. "I'm just glad they didn't have
steroids when I was playing. . . . I probably would have a tendency to say,
'Let's try this and see what it does to me.' "

There are victims, of course, none bigger on this year's ballot than first
baseman Fred McGriff. He had a .886 OPS (on-base-plus-slugging percentage)
and, until the height of the steroid era in 2000, the 10th-highest OPS by
anyone with at least 8,000 at-bats. Everyone ahead of him is in the Hall of
Fame. He had six consecutive seasons of at least 30 homers, eight seasons of
100 or more RBI, nearly 900 more hits than Mark McGwire and more RBI and hits
than Bagwell. McGriff says he never used PEDs. His body didn't change, and
there weren't dramatic spikes in performance. Yet his numbers were dwarfed by
the steroid era. He'll have my vote as long as he's on the ballot.

The rest of my votes go to Craig Biggio, one of the greatest offensive second
basemen in history; Jack Morris, the greatest pitcher of the '80s; shortstop
Alan Trammell, the Barry Larkin of his generation; and closer Lee Smith, who
wasn't Mariano Rivera, or even Trevor Hoffman, but a was model of consistency.

剩下的投票人選有: Fred McGriff/Craig Biggio/Jack Morris/Alan Trammell
Lee Smith

 Biggio is the only player this year whose induction is probable. Morris will
be awfully close. Piazza, and likely Bagwell, will make it within a couple of
years. Bonds and Clemens will make it too, but their entry will be delayed
for perhaps another five years.

My feeling is that they shouldn't have to wait. We can't erase the steroid
era from the record books, so let's make sure the greatest players from this
era are honored at the Baseball Hall of Fame.

他們都不應該等待 我們不能把類固醇年代給抹去 所以就讓當代最好的球員進去吧

Maybe it'll take a current Hall of Famer to admit he used
performance-enhancing drugs. Maybe it'll take greater acceptance that
steroids were used more pervasively than anyone could have envisioned. Maybe
then, and only then, will enough voters believe that, although these players
might be flawed, they deserve to be in Cooperstown.

Maybe then enough voters will come to terms with the era for these stained
candidates to gain the ultimate honor.

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 140.112.25.133
→ howard21201:戰
推 power1234567:我們稱之為~~~~~~戰神
推 blackcellar:這篇太霸氣了
推 MattCain:最後一句...某部分中肯
推 phix:的確沒啥差 只是跟他們同一時代沒吃藥的球員很衰
推 hbreak:不是每個用藥的都可以這麼強
推 rex9999:天啊！　強硬不失道理，近乎無法辯駁，好讚的文章。
→ aborwang:我同意
推 KusoPvt:打藥的通常是最認真的球員 他們注重營養 作息規律
推 lp2348:我們不會因為毒奶的貢獻就貶低巨人的冠軍XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
推 a88152660:不管你想不想面對 類固醇年代就擺在那裡
→ aborwang:但我不同意用藥合法化
推 x147159357:沒有人同意用藥合法化阿 問題是那時候根本沒有不合法
推 accjm2440:我開始相信你了XDDDD
推 porten812:反觀中職
推 Sparksfly:Selig s__ks.
推 rockyao:霸氣外洩~~
推 if2:戰!!!
推 bezlin:只可惜多了這一票可能還很不夠多
推 Kouzuki:現在有類固醇 以前有小綠
推 wmp12linux:可以看見Lou Whitaker和Alan Trammell一起進去的一天嗎
推 Ruri:說的真好
推 knoxvillt:要開戰了
推 Ginola:贊成
推 lions402:那時候沒有合不合法的問題  他們也沒錯
推 OoyaoO:本來就沒有不合法
推 szza2000:名人堂是歷史博物館 不是教堂 !!!
推 DerekJeter02:根本沒啥好戰~
推 WadeMiley:Manny認真？
http://www.appledaily.com.tw/appledaily/article/sports/20100316/32364224/

不逛夜店 每天做重量

悍創透露，拉米瑞茲抵台前，就曾問過他的經紀人，是否要帶他去夜店，不過遭到婉拒，
拉米瑞茲不是夜店咖，工作人員只帶他去中式餐館吃飯，拉米最愛的是海鮮類，而他作息
很正常，不愛亂晃，唯一不變的是，每天一定固定做重量訓練90分鐘，讓工作人員很佩服
：「巨星不是這麼容易誕生的。」

推 wanger:馬怪.火箭人.棒子爺的成績及貢獻進不了名人堂 那還要誰進?
推 Allenichiro:猛
→ DerekJeter02:"typically" 原PO都翻了還看不懂嗎
推 iammessiah:推
推 WadeMiley:整篇沒有問題 但那段是一種合理化的說詞吧
※ 編輯: abc12812        來自: 140.112.25.133       (01/08 22:35)
推 chung0924:go go Bonds
※ 編輯: abc12812        來自: 140.112.25.133       (01/08 22:37)
→ borriss:Lou Whitaker要等vc翻案..然後Trammell又沒衝線吧
→ Sparksfly:噗.....引了一個台媒
推 Asucks:為何沒提到馬怪爾？把MLB從罷工谷底帶向最高峰的真漢子！
→ Sparksfly:說法沒問題 這訪問也很OK 偏偏他是台媒...
推 raoul0410:我同意
推 evic1224:A-ROD IN HOF 結案
推 HcaS:推Rocket!!!
推 SlamKai:讚!
推 JohnMcDonald:推Manny!! 希望他以後有機會可以再來台灣玩~ XD
推 waiani:幾乎沒法反駁XDDDD 這戰鬥力爆表的高...想反擊還真難
推 siliver:霸王色!!
推 afulet:要被陣暈了...
推 dehong:推BONDS跟火箭人 都已經無罪了還要被酸..莫名其妙
推 darkerson:推
推 kenny781558:推 他們不進誰進?
推 mepass:以前吃藥就沒犯法啊
推 spppeter:.......不卑不亢......
推 pasaword:說的真好
→ Beisbol:每年到這個時候，最期待的就是Joe Morgan出來開砲...
推 cd12631:!!!!!
推 kuaiphoto:這篇說得很好啊～!!!
推 japan428:Manny本來問題就不是愛玩　他的問題是球場上的人和吧...
推 cd12631:我覺得還有能不能讓Bonds有機會重回球場呢
→ cd12631:記得他之前一直表態想要轉教練可是沒人願意請他
推 itaiitai:推!!!
推 HeavyBlue:推
推 jaysuzuki:推前半篇噓後半篇，同意用藥無法抹滅偉大，但後面把用藥
→ jaysuzuki:整個合理化實在噁心。  用藥的都是最認真的，這句尤其好
→ jaysuzuki:笑，簡直把很認真卻不用要的當白痴。  營養跟用藥更完全
→ jaysuzuki:是兩回事，用藥的副作用就不用多說了。
→ hollowland:"都是"跟"常常是"看起來很像但是差很遠耶...
→ a88152660:既然名人堂有爭議 那另外設一個聖人堂如何XD
→ hollowland:話說後面那段"只有當他們停止用藥表現下滑..."
→ hollowland:看起來有種莫名的傷感..
推 BlitzX:PED users were "typically" the most dedicated players
推 PennyHughes:不能用現在的規則去裁罰之前的行為+1
推 WadeMiley:或許我誤會Manny了 但我主要是認為不該將用藥合理化 我
→ WadeMiley:認同棒子爺他們的偉大 但同時也有很多沒有用藥也非常努
→ WadeMiley:力的偉大球員 他們不是白痴 認同jay大說的+1
推 linisthebest:這霸氣 很難不認同
噓 Purekim:停止用藥表現下滑<--真諷刺... 順便代言一下好了
→ lovecmgirls:推!!!
推 SatoTakuma:霸氣的一篇文章 不知該說什麼 只能推了
推 ff760725:也沒有合理化，用藥在那個年代的MLB本來就是合理的
→ ff760725:但這話題戰到世界末日都戰不完...XD
推 CGary:這問題就是我當初擔心的 要辦不好好辦 現在連 Piazza 也拿出
→ CGary:來「懷疑」一下那真是很不好... 讓這些人過去吧...
→ MTal:名人堂不是教堂,想必Rose看到這句話應該痛哭流涕了...
→ CGary:Rose 再怎樣還算是觸犯到白紙黑字的天條... 其他這些人不過
→ CGary:是我們道德上不認同而已...
→ Reddick5566:如果有要檢後 都沒被抓過 之前沒規範 有用何罪之有?
推 au3rupy3:就是不是純白的而已...很多人心裡不舒服 自然影響投票
推 Neurontin:還不錯的一篇 我喜歡
推 tonyselina:推。 的確是這樣，實際上上個十年有高潮就是這些人
→ tonyselina:有天分+努力+吃藥，帶動了人潮再高標準踢他們下山谷
推 decorum:吃藥救了聯盟 聯盟過河拆橋 一串糊塗帳 聖教主TMD！
推 Uncontinue:法律都不朔及既往了 現在一堆人不知道在堅持甚麼
→ Uncontinue:不是說把以前的行為合法化 而是在當時這本來就合法
→ mygoing:合法? 根據什麼法還是什麼規則.規章
推 decorum:老美的法律精神：沒有禁止的事情 就是合法的
→ decorum:棒子、火箭都是否認吃藥 而以偽證起訴 而不是因為吃藥違法
推 OoyaoO:沒有禁止就是合法阿 這有什麼好查三小規則規章的
推 OoyaoO:最多說他們道德有瑕疵而已 現在連偽證案都判無罪了
推 CGary:應該說禁藥有不合法性 但是沒罰則 總不好沒罰則=我高興怎麼
→ CGary:判就怎麼判吧？  現在等於是宣判他們棒球生涯死刑 所以只能
→ CGary:說某些道德捍衛者的道德要求太高了 只要有吃藥 就算聯合封殺
→ CGary:這種有明文規定的違法行為都可以無視...
→ KusoPvt:如果沒規定不能吃這個吃那個  那麼不合法性在哪?
推 WadeMiley:過去沒有禁止 沒有合法或合理化問題 但現在有 可是他提
推 CGary:HGH其實有明文規定過不准 只是沒有罰則...
→ KusoPvt:別把合法性跟道德觀混作一談...
→ CGary:真正開始有明確罰則已經是 04 年以後的事情了
→ WadeMiley:出的例子卻是現在的毒奶 那段才是最幫吃藥合理化的地方
→ CGary:所以我說這種事情就是道德觀「超人」啊... XD
→ WadeMiley:好像毒奶反而是全聯盟最認真最上進的 教練GM都不在意
→ CGary:我覺得毒奶這個例子真的很不好 好像把所有吃藥的人都變成是
→ CGary:「笨蛋」  因為他實在是有夠笨的... - -
→ WadeMiley:這就合理化的太過分了點吧？ 我認為毒奶還是該譴責而不
→ WadeMiley:是拿來講過去的事情跟棒子爺他們一起討論
→ CGary:有了罰則不處理是不對的 我也覺得Melky不應該列為被辯護 真
→ CGary:要列為這個反例應該要講 A-Rod 這種的
推 WadeMiley:同意樓上+1
推 v32767:可能他是譴責牛奶個人 而不是質疑冠軍純度(?)
推 WadeMiley:不是吧 還有提毒奶被新東家接受的部分 來講GM教練不在意
推 snow5566:有笑有推
推 Redchain:現在抓你民國86年前沒戴安全帽然後罰款  你也不會服氣吧
推 Redchain:況且還是要說一聲Selig sucks  104人的名單怎麼就龜起來
→ Redchain:放那些被放出來的人出來吸砲火  自己又站在道德高點
→ Redchain:邦茲因藥而黑  馬怪卻被禮聘在當打教  這當中為何有差異
推 miabcd199:MLB版好久沒戰了呢( ′-`)y-～
推 Purekim:沒有吧… 應該說不吃藥才是笨蛋吧 因為這篇說‘吃藥的通常
→ Purekim:是最認真的球員啊’ ^뜼
推 Purekim:如果聯盟以歷史共業扛起來，讓這些人進我還比較能接受. 可
→ Purekim:是這篇的護航說法實在噁心…
推 Sechslee:Selig吃屎
推 lef1986:因為馬怪是白人（？）
推 KevinLiou:cant agree anymore
推 otaku5566:霸氣外洩
推 eanson11:就算這再怎麼講  還是會有人愛挑語病 只能說  推這篇!!!!
→ eanson11:另外某樓質疑什麼合法 不是非法就叫合法您瞭解了嗎大大
推 eternia:這時只好推Pedro了！
推 MinChuan:其實當時不違法就沒什麼好說的,何況他們也都勝訴了
推 transformer8:最可憐的事馬怪爾...
推 niravaabhas:馬怪真的是被Selig當衛生紙在用的 無言
推 aquablue:好霸氣的一篇!
→ tsgd:作弊一直是棒球的一部份<<<看到這句 我笑了 除了誤判外還有?
推 porten812:松焦油、填充棒(?)
推 Eddward:有些人用藥還打不出這種成績勒應該要進
→ Sparksfly:架假網站
推 live4132:以前沒禁 大家都在吃 不吃的確是笨蛋
推 vergilmir:這個真的就是歷史共業了 但是拿牛奶來比就..他是知法犯
→ vergilmir:法 跟以前沒有這個規定不一樣
推 atxp4869:我很弱  弱到看不出這篇到底是不是反諷
推 evilvens:
推 krajicek:Bonds也是啊，07年破完紀錄後就找不到工作了
→ krajicek:這實在有點很難不去懷疑有默契封殺這回事
推 tlw0709:講得真是太好了 我懷義 但我沒有證據
推 page5566:爽推
推 meteorhades:Selig吃屎
→ borriss:再幾個小時就知道了....
推 pujos:Melky那段翻的有點怪吧
→ pujos:巨人的冠軍不會因為牛奶的作弊行為而被貶損
→ pujos:這段比較像一碼歸一碼的額外註釋而已.沒其他意義阿
推 bkm1:只能說我手上有票就不投他們 但其他人怎麼想 我管不著.....
推 rayven:agree
噓 Derp:還幫他找理由勒
推 externaload:Selig sucks拉 !!!
→ zgoi:前面說得很有道理啊 但為何最後要把禁藥合理化?
→ zgoi:這篇文章的敗筆就在最後了
推 david18:哪裡把禁藥合理化了?? 他說類固醇是那個時代的事實, 現在
→ david18:是禁藥   以前可不是
→ redplum:今年可能沒人會進 HOF應該砍掉重煉
推 duepre:有太多球員就算給他吃藥也沒辦法60轟..
推 ust:
推 sony1256:我覺得有些道理 那時候確實並沒有禁藥不禁藥問題
推 secpeda:威力十足的LUB
推 avantgardej:贊成，他們是我們從小看到大的
推 marcohpsh:請問可轉棒球版嗎?
※ marcohpsh:轉錄至看板 Baseball                                   01/10 15:31
推 lwei781:Big Mac 用的那種藥 是幫助他可以做強度更高的重訓啊
推 a78914124:霸氣阿可惜其他評審
→ flyiii:先搞清楚他們用的藥再來說他們認真不認真好嗎 ?
→ flyiii:他們用的藥,如果不更努力重訓,甚至要花兩到三倍的時間的話
→ flyiii:通通都沒用的,拜託一下.在那個時代那不是禁藥!
→ flyiii:你會因為2000年把鴉片定為毒品然後把1800年用鴉片的人關?
推 a10141013:統測作弊榜首也應該無罪 因為人家作弊也不能這麼高
推 RWAllenL:樓上說的就好像現在不能用鯊魚裝 要去把之前奧運靠鯊魚裝
→ RWAllenL:裝拿一堆金牌的通通取消一樣
→ RWAllenL:因為用鯊魚裝作弊 所以之前有用的通通都要抓
推 RWAllenL:打完才發現好像跟樓上沒關係...
→ RWAllenL:同樣邏輯 那些選手一定都知道穿鯊魚裝可以提升成績所以還
→ RWAllenL:要穿 靠鯊魚裝衝高世界紀錄害沒穿的人很難破
推 EMPERORHEN:這就是霸氣阿...XD