Re: [情報] Goose Gossage vs. Mariano Rivera

[littlesheepy (哩偷嬉皮)]

不專業翻譯，有誤請鞭。

※ 引述《abc12812 ()》之銘言：
: http://tinyurl.com/b3mqo4d
: Goose Gossage is 61, which I guess is old enough to turn the Hall of Fame
: relief pitcher into a grumpy old man, or at least a grumpy middle-aged man.
: Over the weekend, Gossage told Newsday that Mariano Rivera is certainly
: great, BUT ...

Goose Gossage現在61歲了，我想這樣的歲數大概差不多夠把這個名人堂救援投手轉變成為
一個壞脾氣的老頭，或者至少是個壞脾氣的中年男子。上個週末，Gossage告訴Newsday說
：Mo當然很棒啦，但是...


:     "I think that these guys are so dominant in that one-inning role that
: they've forgotten what we used to do," the former Yankees closer said. "It
: takes three guys to do what we used to do."

「我認為這些傢伙在那種『一局限定』的角色上表演得超棒，以至於他們忘記了我們之前
是怎麼玩的。」，前洋基隊終結者如是說，「可要花上三個現在這些傢伙來做我們以前的
工作呢」


: Joe Posnaski followed up with a blog post that, well, ripped the Goose a
: pretty good one. I do agree with what Joe wrote here:

Joe Posnaski接著寫了一篇部落格，狠狠地刮了Goose一頓。我相當同意他在這裡寫的：

:     The obvious reason is that it diminishes Goose Gossage to talk this way.
: Goose Gossage was a great pitcher. A truly great pitcher. Gossage is in the
: Hall of Fame, he's widely remembered, he does not need to go around telling
: people how great he was or how he wasn't used the way pitchers today are
: used. I think it cheapens him to do so, especially when he uses the beloved
: Mariano Rivera for effect. Rivera has been gracious and classy and
: respectful. Gossage shouldn't use him as a prop.

「很明顯的是Goose這樣說真是貶損了自己。Goose Gossage是個偉大的投手，真正偉大的
投手。Goose Gossage是個名人堂球員，他家喻戶曉，他不需要到處告訴別人說他以前有
多屌，或是說他如何不像現在的投手那樣被使用。我認為他這樣搞把自己給弄廉價了，特
別是他利用備受愛載的Mo來達成效果。Mo是和藹的、有氣質的、恭敬的。Gossage
不應該將他作為道具。

: Posnanski then goes into a lengthy discussion of the careers of the two
: relievers and why Rivera is the greatest relief pitcher ever:

Posnanski接著針對兩個後援投手的生涯展開了長篇的討論，並且探討何以Mo是史上最
偉大的投手。

:     OK, do you see? Rivera was better. A lot better. He was better in cold
: numbers, and he was a lot better when you take into consideration the eras
: when they pitched. For Rivera to match Gossage in the basic numbers, he would
: have had to pitch 278 more innings -- all those multiple innings that Gossage
: pitched -- and he would have to allow 201 more (a tidy 6.51 ERA). He would
: have had to walk 350 or so batters in those innings, while allowing 42 home
: runs. And he would have had to do all that in a much lower scoring run
: environment. I'm guessing here, of course, but I think he could have managed
: it.

「OK，看到了嗎？Mo比較威，威太多了。他光從數字上看就比較威，而且當你考慮到他們
兩個投球的年代時，Mo就更威猛了。如果Mo要跟Gossage在基礎數字上相對等的話，他必須
要多投278局---這些局數是Gossage多投的複數局數---，而且Mo還必須要多丟201分（相當
於6.51自責分率）。Mo還必須在這些局數中多保送350個打者，同時被夯42支全壘打。
然後他必須要在一個得分更少的時代環境當中作到這些。我猜他應該是做得到的」


: What I'm wondering, however, is whether that's a fair approach. Tack on a lot
: of bad innings so you can see how much better Rivera was than Gossage. I
: don't think it's that simple, for several reasons.


然而我好奇的是：這是否是個公平的比較方式？承擔一堆垃圾局數然後你可以看到Mo跟
Gossage比起來有多威？我不認為這有這麼簡單，原因有幾個：

: First off, it is easier to pitch one inning at a time than the multiple
: innings Gossage did, especially early in his career when he had years of
: 141.2, 133 and 134.1 innings in relief. I don't think anybody really disputes
: that. One reason we see so many dominant relief seasons now is because it's
: easier to get three outs than five or six or nine. Rivera isn't the only
: reliever over the past two decades to post huge numbers; he's just done it
: longer than everybody else.

首先，一次只投一局比Gossage所做的一次投多局要來的簡單多了，特別是在Gossage生涯
早期，他曾經以後援身份投過141.2、133與134.1局。我不認為有誰可以真的質疑這些數字
。我們現在可以看到這麼多威猛的後援投手的原因之一是因為：拿到三出局比拿到五或是
六個出局數簡單多了。Mo不是唯一一個在過去20年當中繳出優秀成績單的後援投手。只是
他的優秀表現持續得比其他人久。

: Now, as Posnanski points out, Gossage certainly remembers those three big
: seasons of his -- but Goose had just one other 100-inning season in his
: career. Posnanski also points out that Gossage's ERA in one-inning relief
: appearances in his career wasn't that great (3.75), although I'm guessing
: many of those came in the last several years of his career, when he wasn't
: the same dominant reliever he had been from 1975 to 1985. Let alone that some
: came after he may have pitched three innings the day before.

如Posnanski所指出的，Gossage當然記得他投出驚人局數的三個球季，但除了這三個球季
以外，Gossage也不過還有另一個100局以上的球季（譯註：Gossage以後援出賽投出100局
以上有四個球季）。而且Posnanski也指出：在僅投一局的救援表現中，Gossage的自責分
率並沒有很棒，是3.75，雖然我猜這些大多來自於他生涯晚期，那時候他已經不像1975-
1985年之間這麼威猛了。更不要說這些糟糕的一局爆表現很多時候可能要歸咎於他前一天
才投過三局...

: I think Joe is short-changing Gossage's workload just a bit, even if he did
: only have those three super seasons (with one mediocre season as a starter
: thrown in). If we rank the most relief innings each pitcher had in a season,
: it would go like this:

我認為Posnanski稍微低估了Gossage的工作量一些，即是Gossage只有三個超級多局數的
球季（還有一個表現差強人意的球季是被丟去當先發）。如果我們將兩個投手在一個球季
當中投過得最多的局數，進行排名比對，我想應該是這樣。

: Gossage
: Gossage
: Gossage
: Rivera
: Gossage
: Gossage
: Gossage
: Gossage
: Gossage
: Rivera
: Gossage


: Those are all their seasons with at least 80 innings (not counting Gossage's
: year as a starter). Rivera had two; Gossage had eight, including six of at
: least 90 innings, something Rivera did just once, as a setup guy in 1996.

這些是他們投過至少80局的球季（不算Gossage作為先發的球季）。Mo有兩個超過80局的
球季，Gossage有八個，包括六個球季至少90局，Mo可是只投過一次90局喔，在1996年當
setup時。


: What we don't know is how dominant Gossage would have been if he'd had
: Rivera's workload. He had a career 2.77 ERA as a reliever (Rivera's is 2.05
: in, as Posnanski also points out, a higher-scoring era). But isn't it likely
: Gossage would have been more dominant pitching in one-inning stints? That
: maybe he would have remained great into his late 30s instead of declining in
: his mid-30s if he hadn't had such a heavy workload early in his career?

我們所不知道的是：如果Gossage的工作量是跟Mo一樣的話，他會有多威呢？他有生涯2.77
的自責分率（Mo的自責分率是2.05---如Posnanski所說的---在一個高得分的年代）。但是
Gossage如果只投一局的話，難道不也是會這麼威嗎？如果他不是在生涯早期有這麼重的工
作量，那麼或許他就可以保持威力直到三十歲晚期，而不是在30中期就退化，不是嗎？

: And likewise, we don't know what would have happened to Rivera if had come up
: in 1975 instead of 1995. Maybe he burns out after a few years, unable to
: handle those 130-inning seasons. Maybe he's great for a decade and then, like
: Gossage, slowly peters out. Ultimately, it's a question that can't be
: answered, just like we don't know what would have happened had Rivera been
: moved back as a starter at some point.

同樣的，我們也不知道如果Mo是在1975年投球而不是1995年初登板會怎麼樣。或許他會在
幾年之後就被操爆，無法承受這些130幾局的球季，或許他會有十年的好表現，然後就像
Gossage一樣，慢慢隕落。最終，這是一個無法被回答的問題，就如同我們無法知道如果
Mo在某個時間點被丟回去當先發會怎麼樣一樣。

: Look, is Rivera the greatest relief pitcher of all time? I do believe he is.
: He's been so good for so long -- not to mention his postseason record (0.70
: ERA in 141 innings) -- that it's hard to make any other argument. But
: comparing relief pitchers across generations is even more difficult than
: other positions.

嘿，Mo是否是史上最偉大的救援投手呢？我相信他是的。他有很長一段時間都表現得很
棒---更不要提他的季後賽數據（0.70自責分率，141局）---很難去質疑這件事。但是比較
不同時代的後援投手這件事，比把不同時代的其他位置選手拿來對比，來得困難多了。

: I don't think Gossage is entirely off base, however. Even if he is a cranky
: middle-aged guy who played in an era where one of the major issues was
: complaining about beer being removed from the clubhouse after games.


然而，我不認為Gossage說的話全然地與事實不符。即使他是一個脾氣古怪的中年男子，並
且在一個主要議題之一是抱怨啤酒在賽後從球員休息室被移走的年代投球。


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◆ From: 140.114.111.208
推 iamwaits:感謝翻譯
推 taluku:謝謝你救了我這英文白癡>Q<
推 numb124:推
推 Sparksfly:
推 Lasvegas:PUSH~
推 japan428:讚  很不錯喔~
推 ddtcd:PUSH
推 LouisGrey:就學長出來嗆學弟過太爽......
推 oopsmamamiya:推樓上
推 lukehong:樓樓上太中肯
推 onime0704:但我覺得這有點像Pedro叫Ruth出來打的感覺差不多？
→ onime0704:兩個人都很偉大,何必要詆毀對方呢-_-a
推 fetoyeh:話說這個cold Number要怎麼解釋比較好"光從數字上看"嗎?
這樣翻真的比較好，感謝！
※ 編輯: littlesheepy    來自: 140.114.112.251      (03/13 18:35)
推 Uncontinue:謝翻譯 拯救我這個英文白癡
推 LoveMoose:感謝~
推 fetoyeh:其實我不知道他是不是還有指什麼其他意思 所以才這樣問 XD
推 andwhose:3Q翻譯
推 kusami:
推 Alexander13:推
推 LouisGrey:他的意思就是光從數字看就比較強了，如果考慮到面對的打
→ LouisGrey:者，又覺得 MO 更強了。
→ LouisGrey:所以「必須要在」如果換成「可以在」文意就更清楚了。