※ 引述《hschen (H-Y)》之銘言：
: OK, I am forced to say something. I am forced to do things I don't like.
: : 那也是一種「反覆」，不過貝多芬的反覆，一向是要「到底的」，也就是說，
: : 他為了奏鳴曲式的嚴整，寧願犧牲觀眾的耳朵和新鮮感，明明聽一次就很了的東西，
: : 對不起，還是要照規矩來，再聽一次，你要問為什麼？「奏鳴曲式」！！
: : 貝多芬的曲式之工整，乃音樂史上第一把交椅，我們在學校裡上曲式學，
: : 這只是一般的通則，貝多芬對奏鳴曲式的運用，其實非常的自由，你所說的這些
: : 規矩，只是後世的理論家們，整理歸納出來的，讓我們比較容易瞭解的規則。
: : 事實上，貝多芬的交響曲有很多都不是你所說的這種形式，硬要拿這個理論來套，
: Are these two paragraphs written by the same person?
: The word "sonata form" was invented by Czerny, after Beethoven's death.
: Of course Beethoven did not know the "definition" of sonata form then.
: This means Beethoven did not follow the "textbooks" while compsing, because
: there was no textbook on "sonata form". (of course he did not need one!)
: Now, who said this?
現在你的問題是有關音樂史的問題。貝多芬寫的是奏鳴曲式，不管當時
"sonata form" 這個字出現了沒，形式已然存在了。"sonata form"這個字
什麼時候出現，其實沒有那麼重要。
貝多芬在寫奏鳴曲式樂章時，都會在呈示部結束時標上反覆記號，我猜
他希望反覆。這就是為什麼那時候的演奏者都會反覆。也是我說要照規矩來的原因。
至於貝多芬寫了許多風格稍自由的東西，那是作曲的問題，是另一個問題。
: : 他為了奏鳴曲式的嚴整，寧願犧牲觀眾的耳朵和新鮮感，明明聽一次就很了的東西，
: : 對不起，還是要照規矩來，再聽一次，你要問為什麼？「奏鳴曲式」！！
: "sonata form" is never a good answer.
: The "general practice"(loose sense) of composing in classical period
: (for those really great composers) often made things look like "sonata form".
: Many rondo mov. at that time can be considered as "sonata rondo", for
: example.
嗯....這是有的
: This tells us the word "sonata form" is not easily defined. There
不會很難定義啊！別把這些事情想的這麼難。
: is a great music scholar who claimed that Mozart did not use "sonata form"
: in his 1st mov. of piano concerti. When he said that, he has some
: definition of "sonata form" in his mind.
: Now you want to call that 2nd mov. of Beethoven "sonata form".
: Go ahead. I don't mind. I was writing things in a more "layman" way
嗯....我已經拿出證據了，所以我不是要詭辯，事實是如此。
: because I was writting for laymen.
很抱歉，如果你的文章，是寫給外行人看的，那我以後不回了，不過，即使
寫給外行人看，也應該要正確喔。
: I don't find Suskind's words wrong. But if you would
喔...我必須說，以「第一號第二樂章不是sonana form」這句話來說，
你們兩位的確都錯了。
: like to show how much you know, do it as you want.
喔....我沒有這個意思，如果給你們這樣的感覺，那是我的錯，對不起。
: How about if I say "Newton's 2nd law is wrong" while another
: say it is right? That law is wrong if you know quantum mechanics.
: But it is right for the purpose of most non-physicists.
: This depends on what you think is right or wrong.
: it is tricky, always.
: Of course I have never thought of teaching modern physics on BBS.
: And I never liked to dig other person's words out and critize on them.
我也不想，畢竟我們還不認識，我只是想說，第二樂章是奏鳴曲式無誤。
: I apologize to most NTU students because I never want to go into
: this deep. There are things we don't have to know because it is not
: correct timing.
嗯....我想你小看他們了，我再版上講過更深的東西，大家還討論的津津有味呢！
像小懶藍啊、卜慶啊、papl啊....這些都是會家子，所以，不用道歉了啦！
: Hsuan-Yi Chen
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御駕親征
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