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[3] EQUIPMENT [3.1] How old is my trombone? There are a couple of Web sites that relate serial numbers to manufacture dates. Try: <http://www.musictrader.com/serialnos.html> <http://www.missouri.edu/~cceric/sn/index.html> Bach: <http://www.selmer.com/htdox/tb14.htm> Conn: <http://www.whc.net/rjones/connindex.html#index> [3.2] Where can I buy trombones, mouthpieces, mutes and gig bags? If possible, buy from your local music retailer or they will disappear. New instruments can usually be purchased at 15-40% off retail price. If you don't live near a music store or your local music store doesn't stock the product in which you are interested, try contacting the manufacturer and asking for the location of the nearest dealer. There are several places on the Web where you can purchase trombones and/or accessories. Here are a few of them: <http://www.giardinelli.com/> <http://www.hickeys.com/> <http://www.osmun.com/> <http://www.wichitaband.com/> <http://www.wwandbw.com/> [3.3] What should I do to keep my trombone in top playing condition? See URL: <http://www.fcasd.edu/teachers/traugh/trombone.html> See question: [4.6] "What can I do to keep my slide in alignment and working freely?". [3.4] What is the difference between a large bore, medium bore and small bore trombone? On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:43:20 MST, Dennis Clason <dclason@cbae.nmsu.edu> proposed the following definitions in the message entitled "Re: Bach 36BO": ... Bore description Bore size (thousandths [of an inch]) ---------------- ------------------------------------ ... Small 490 or less ... Medium 500 to 509 ... Medium large 525 ... Large 547 (some nearby oddballs at 536 - 540) ... Extra large 562 ... Small dual 490/508 ... Large dual 547/562 ... [3.5] What is a "peashooter"? A "peashooter" is a mildly derogatory term for a small bore trombone (see question [3.4] "What is the difference between a large bore, medium bore and small bore trombone?"). This term is used mostly by trombonists who would probably be happier playing the euphonium :-) [3.6] How is bore size measured? On Sat Jan 4 09:46:44 1997, Wayne Tanabe <BRASSRX@aol.com>, wrote the following in the message entitled "Re: Measuring the bore of a trombone (or any brass instrument)": ...Bore size on trombone is measurement of the inside slide tube of the hand slide. If the lower slide tube is larger than the upper slide tube, then you have a dual bore instrument. Trumpets, flugelhorns, horns, euphoniums, and tuba bore sizes are a measurement of the tuning slide tubes (inside slide tubes) of the valve section... [3.7] What is a dual bore instrument? On Sat Mar 1 14:40:20 1997, Richard Corliss <rcorliss@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU> wrote the following in the message entitled "Re: What is "dual-bore" slide?": ...'Dual bore' refers to a trombone that has slides with two different bores. The discussion of euphoniums and baritones I think failed to note that trombones differ with respect to of how conical they are. By having a small bore slide followed by a larger bore slide the instrument becomes more conical - more like a euphoniums. The size of the bell and the character of the tubing that leads to the bell, of course, also comes into play here. I have a Olds Artist horn that is small bored but it is dual bored and has a large 8 1/2" bell. The bore size is similar to my King 2B but the dual bore and the large bell makes the instrument very different.... [3.8] What is an F attachment? An F attachment is the extra tubing and valve attached to some Bb trombones. When the valve is engaged, the pedal tone in first position is F instead of Bb. The engaged F attachment makes 1st position similar to 6th position in the unengaged instrument, 2nd position is similar to 7th position in the unengaged instrument, 3rd position would be the same as 8th position (if an 8th position actually existed) in the unengaged instrument etc.. The distances between positions when the F attachment is engaged are longer than when it is not engaged. There is room only for 5 (almost 6) positions on the standard slide when the F attachment is engaged. Some alto trombones have a Bb attachments and some bass trombones have 2 attachments, one usually in F and the other in another key. The F attachment has three main benefits. One, the lowest possible pedal tone on the instrument is now 3 (or 4) semitones lower. Two, some missing notes in the trombone range are filled in: Eb, D, and Db immediately below the bass clef are now playable-- C (usually, depending on how you tune the F attachment) and B are still missing. Third, and possibly most importantly, many alternate positions are created which can aid in legato playing, fast passages, ornamentation etc.. Some of the disadvantages include: a significant amount of weight added to the instrument; the extra weight and bracing can possibly deaden the sound of the instrument; the sound through the F attachment can be of a different quality than that through the straight instrument; and there are many new positions and intonation adjustments that have to be learned. <HR> See question "[6.12] How do I tune the F attachment?" for F attachment tuning inforamtion. See question "[3.19] What is the difference between dependent and in-line valves on bass trombones?" for bass trombone attachment tunings. [3.9] What is all that extra tubing on some trombones? It is most likely an F attachment, see question [3.8] "What is an F attachment?". [3.10] What is a convertible trombone? It is one where the F attachment (see question [3.8] "What is an F attachment?") can be removed or replaced as needed. [3.11] What is a Thayer Valve (TM)? On Tue Jan 23 23:37:25 1996, Topher Logan <topher@iamerica.net> wrote the following the the message entitled "Re: Thayer Valves?": ...The valve is known as an "axial flow valve" and the concept behind it is to eliminate the hard corners the air used to have to take on a conventional valve (even with an open wrap). You'll know one when you see one, Gregg, by its unmistakable conical shape. Most people who have played on horns with the Thayer agree that the response is much better, particularly in the trigger range, and some people notice the dynamic tendencies of their horn are improved (i.e. the louds are more controllable, and the softs less "dangerous"). Also, with fewer moving parts, there is less to go wrong with the valve.... [3.12] How can I tell if I have a "real" Thayer Valve (TM)? On Fri Jan 24 20:56:54 1997, Douglas Yeo <yeo@yeodoug.com> wrote the following the message entitled "Re: "Thayer Valve" History": For clarity, here is the current situation: Three companies make "Thayer valves:" 1) Thayer Valve International L.P (TVI) Owned and operated by Orla Ed Thayer, the original inventor of the Thayer "axial flow valve". These valves have Ed Thayer's signature on them. Located in Waldport, Oregon USA (See ad on page 60 of Fall 1996 ITA Journal) 2) O. E. Thayer Company Operated by James Nydigger This was the original company Ed Thayer founded many years ago but he no longer is associated with this company. To say that it irks him that his name is on this valve is an understatement. Located in Albany, Oregon, USA (See ad on page 17 of Fall 1996 ITA Journal) 3) Edwards. They make their own version of the Thayer valve. Ed Thayer was involved in the original discussion and licensing of his valve to Edwards. Edwards "Thayer" valves are legitimate. Several companies are using "Thayer" valves: 1) Bach. Plans to use O. E. Thayer Valves as an option on some models. 2) Conn. Apparently is using O. E. Thayer Valves as well on some horns.... [3.13] What is the difference between a tenor and a bass trombone? On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:47:29, Adrian Drover <adrian@gemscore.demon.co.uk> wrote the following in the message entitled, "Re: stupid!Differences tenor vs bass": ... OK, here's the low-down. Both the tenor and the bass are basically the same length and both produce a pedal Bb two lines and a space below the bass clef when in open 1st position. The bass however has additional tubing to facilitate those tones below E (one ledger below the clef). So do some tenors, but the bass usually has more. The biggest difference is in the bore. The bass is wider, producing a darker tone and enabling the low notes to be produced more easily and with fuller bass tone. Because of this, you do not expect the bass 'bonist to play "Getting Sentimental Over You" in the same key and octave that Tommy Dorsey did, just as you would not expect a tenor player to imitate a George Roberts style bass counterpoint. Range-wise, you could say that the relative compass of a bass 'bone is probably a 4th or 5th below that of the tenor, but is actually able to produce a fully chromatic decent of an octave and a half below that of the valveless trombone. The bass 'bone valves also facilitate easier alternatives to some of the awkward position changes in the low register. ... <HR> See question "[3.19] What is the difference between dependent and in-line valves on bass trombones?" for a discussion on bass trombone tunings. See question "[3.23] Where can I get information about the bass trombone?" for more information on the bass trombone. [3.14] What is the difference between a soprano trombone and a slide trumpet? On Thu Feb 20 10:59:40 1997, Matt Varho <BassBonist@aol.com> wrote the following in the message entitled "Re: My ignorance?": (NEED PERMISSION!!!!!!!!!!!!) "Slide trumpets are played by trumpet players. Soprano trombones are played by trombonists. Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk." <HR> On Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:40:46 +1, Edward Solomon <esolomon@fore.co.uk> wrote the following the in the message entitled "Re: My ignorance?": (NEED PERMISSION!!!!!!!!!!!!) "...A slide trumpet possesses a _single_ slide, quite short, along which the whole instrument moves. The pitch can be lowered by about a semitone. The instrument is always played by a trumpeter. A soprano trombone, however, cannot be equated with a slide trumpet. It generally has a larger bore and a six or seven position slide. Pitched in Bb an octave above the tenor trombone, it is occasionally played by trombonists, but more often that not by trumpeters. It is (apart from one or two low notes) completely chromatic, which the slide trumpet is *not*." <HR> On Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:08:10 -0500 (EST), John Cather <JCather761@aol.com> wrote the following in the message entitled "Re: My ignorance?": OK, I have to put in my 2 cents worth here. I play both soprano trombone and slide trumpet, and I'm somewhat knowledgeable about brass instrument construction. Mr. Solomon is referring to an ancient instrument called "Tromba da Tirarsi" or drawn trumpet. This instrument led to the development of modern trombones. The slide trumpets I have seen are typically .450" to .470" in bore size. The trumpets have a conical lead pipe. The soprano trombones I have seen, have bores from .400" to .440" typically. They have no conical lead pipe. They are more cylindrical than the trumpets. They also take a mouthpiece that is shorter that the trumpet. (cornet mpc length) I have heard these instruments wrongfully called slide cornets. The biggest difference is in the mouthpiece. The cup is far deeper than a trumpet. The throat size is much larger than trumpet. The back bore is less conical, but larger. And there is no receiver gap like there is in a trumpet. Finally, the acoustic design (primarily bore shape throughout) seems to be different. I cannot make my soprano trombone sound like my slide trumpet, and vise versa.... [3.15] What is a valve trombone? It is one that has a valve section similar to a trumpet's, instead of a hand slide. [3.16] What is a marching trombone? S. Lee <questions_comments@writeme.com> sent the following information: A marching trombone is a lightweight marching baritone-like instrument. It is not as thick vertically and gives a long slender appearance. Three valves replace the slide action while marching, and the tone quality is like that of a trombone. The bell is 7 to 9 inches in diameter and the mouthpiece is a standard trombone's. [3.17] Is getting my instrument cryogenically treated useful? On Mon Nov 11 13:01:56 1996, Nick Eastop <106137.1013@CompuServe.COM> in the message entitled "Re:Trombone In The Ice Box" quoted Wayne Tanabe <Brassrx@aol.com> about this topic: ... Now for non-ferrous metals there have been almost no studies done concerning cryogenic freezing and non-ferrous metals (brass, copper, silver, gold, and nickel). There is one study done though with this type of metal which is a study done freezing wire made of the different non-ferrous metals. This was a study about cryogenics and torsional oscillators. What is known is that the freezing process does in ferrous metals reduces the residual and tensile stress left in the metal from the forming process. This is basically done through relaxing the metals structure at the atomic level. Its known when one anneals a piece of brass the extreme heat allows the metal to move to a more relaxed position and the grain structure become more even. The other thing that happens is brass become very soft when annealed so sound characteristics are changed in the process. Freezing or cryogenics does not allow movement of the structure itself. When the metal in musical instrument are formed (drawn, spun, stamped, honed, or bent) the metal structure is dislocated. All the freezing process does is to relax the dislocation of the metal, this in turn allows the metal better able to transmit resonance and to develop sound more efficiently. The second and more important thing that is accomplished in freezing non-ferrous metal is when the freezing process is done the grain spacing (spaces between the grain in the metal) is reduced. The benefit of the reduced spacing is with the spacing smaller between each grain less energy is used to transmit sound or more important resonance energy. The instrument is more efficient in its ability of the production or development of sound.... <HR> On Mon Jan 8 13:11:31 1996, Gary Sloane <sloane@comrade.engr.sgi.com> wrote the following in the message entitled "Re: attachments and old thread": "I tried otherwise identical Bach 42Ks at the ITA in Las Vegas last spring. One had been cryogenically treated, the other not. Everybody could tell the difference -- so much so that I insisted that the plain factory horn sounded and felt better, to everybody else's astonishment -- until we found, by inspecting the serial numbers, that I had confused the two. I bought the frozen one only to find that the .547 bore was too large for my liking. $160 Canadian sounds like a good price, though. One caution: freezing can make a good horn better, but it will never make a bad horn good; and freezing is intended to replicate the lack of stress ordinarily provided by time, as in ~30 years...." <HR> On Sat Aug 20 02:25:54 1994, Howard Anders <h.anders@trl.oz.au> wrote the following in the article entitled "Re: Bach 36BO's and 36K's": (NEED PERMISSION!!!!!!!!!!!!) This whole business of cryogenically treating your trumpet/trombone, lacquer vs no-lacquer, Monette vs Bach, gold brass bells or red brass bells, instruments made from silver vs brass vs gold, putting your instrument in an MRI (intense magnetic field) etc, etc, etc, has been just about "thrashed to death" over and over on the trumpet mailing list! I feel sad to think of people wasting their money on dubious at best, & useless at worst, treatments of these kind that make NO audible difference! As far I understand the most important factors are the shape of the air column, as dictated by the shape of the instrument and mouthpiece, & the oral characteristics of the player. I'm not meaning to start a flame war, but goodness, we've been through all this over & over on the trumpet list, & these fancy & expensive treatments make NO perceptible difference. I think we all from time to time, hear what we want to hear, but there is no scientific basis for it. I say this cause I've been through it myself. Spending hundreds of dollars & more on mouthpieces, treatments, better instruments etc. all to no avail! I still sound the same, and the only thing that improves my playing is intelligent practice, so let's save our money and talk about playing, practicing, and music. [3.18] Where can I get my instrument cryogenically treated? <http://www.osmun.com/re.htm#RE> <http://www.tecsolv.com/cryo/> Ted Sparks Musical Services (416) 609 1079 Toronto, Ontario Brass Bow, 700 E Northwest Hwy , Arlington Hts, IL, 60004, USA, (708) 253-7552 [3.19] What is the difference between dependent and in-line valves on bass trombones? See the "New Method for the Modern Bass Trombone" by Eliezer Aharoni <eanogmus@netvision.net.il> published by Noga Music for a very thorough description of bass trombone tunings, position charts and exercises. <HR> Douglas Yeo has a Web page regarding this, see: <http://www.yeodoug.com/valves.html> <HR> On Wed, 15 May 1996 15:14:11 -0500, Dennis L. Clason <dclason@cbae.nmsu.edu> wrote the following in the message entitled "Re: Bassbone valve systems": ... History ------- There are two valve systems in use for double valve bass trombones. The dependent (also called stacked) system places the F/E valve on the neckpipe of the trombone, and the second valve on the F/E attachment tubing. Because the second valve is on the F/E attachment, depressing the valve lever has no effect unless the thumb valve is depressed. Thus the expression "dependent". Dependent systems were developed first as a response to a few composers treating the bass trombone as a completely chromatic instrument from low B (rather than low C). Bartok figured prominently among that group. In-line valve systems were developed by Burt Herrick and Larry Minnick in the late 60s and early 70s. This system places both valves on the neckpipe, and hence they can operate "independently" of one another. In-line systems have the disadvantage of always blowing against the resistance of two valves, instead of one. This drawback is lessened by things like overbore valve sections, Thayer (and Thayer-inspired) valves, open wrap, etc. Olds made the first production in-line valve system basses in the mid 70s. The other manufacturers have since followed suit, and some do not produce dependent rotor basses (Conn, Holton and Benge). In-line systems are thought to provide some added facility, because a fourth overtone series is available. While that is an indisputable fact, the advantage it provides is questionable, especially with some of the second valve tunings in use today. Tunings ------- Dependent systems were originally sold with a flat E tuning. After all, the goal was to give the player a low B, and the flat E tuning accomplished that. Prior to the advent of double valve basses, the player who needed a low B would pull the tuning slide to retune the F attachment to E. This was an obvious starting point for the second valve -- push a button instead of pulling a slide. One might argue that pulling a slide is a more natural act for a trombonist than pushing a button, but I won't. After these things had been around for a while, bass players began to think that low E was not particularly helpful, and something else might help more. After all, with low E tuning, the B is _still_ down at the bottom of the slide stocking. Bach makes the most comprehensive set of second valve crooks that I'm aware of. They come as Eb, D and Db. The most commonly used second valve tuning (can I say the standard tuning?) is D. So, a bass trombone has fundamentals of Bb (open), F (valve 1) and D (valve 1 and 2) with this tuning. Incidentally, the Bb (open) and F (thumb) can be taken as given. The D tuning makes a "pedal" Bb available at the end of the handslide. Some people refer to that as "7th" position, but a D trombone with a Bb slide length doesn't have a seventh position -- the note is actually in 5th position on the D trombone. And I probably should note here that one cannot take an E pull as necessarily present on the F attachment of a double valved bass. It ought to be, but there are too many exceptions. The original Minnick/Herrick independent systems I've seen were tuned as G on the second valve (Olds also followed this pattern, Holton provides a G crook for their double rotor bass). This tuning gives as additional series (G [finger], very flat E [both valves]). I surmise that people converting from dependent systems had some problems with that, because the stock tuning on these instruments now is a very flat G on the finger valve. This gives fundamentals in the following series: D (both valves), and sharp Gb (finger). On my independent rotor bass, there's about a two inch drop on the handslide to bring the Gb into tune. There are alternate crooks available for some independent basses. Bach sells crooks for the 50B3O in G, D, and C. Edwards sells a D crook, and will build your horn in G or bG at your preference. With D tuning on the finger, low B is in 1st with both valves down. Using C on the finger, you get something akin to a flat Bb or possibly A with both valves, I would guess. The tuning information is summarized in the table below. Valve Fundamental System Open Thumb Thumb+Finger Finger ---------- ---- ----- ------------ ------- Dependent Bb F D -- Bb F E 1/ -- Bb F Eb 2/ -- Bb F Db 3/ -- Independent Bb F flat Eb G Bb F D flat G Bb F B D 3/ Bb F ?? flat Bb or A C 3/ Notes: 1/ Pretty much obsolete now 2/ Stock tuning for Bach 50B2 and some Yamahas 3/ Rare, but available as options from Bach and Edwards ... [3.20] How should I go about selling my instrument? See the Trombone-L Instruments for Sale page which is maintained by, Daron Bilyeu <tenortrombone@hotmail.com>, at the following URL: <http://thunder.indstate.edu/~bilyeud/forsale/> Other alternatives include: a.) Post to rec.music.makers.marketplace? b.) Post to Trombone-L? c.) Check out the Band Exchange at <http://www.orbonline.net/~bandex/>. d.) Check out Windplayer Magazine at <http://www.windplayer.com/> e.) Check out Planet Link classifieds at <http://www.amtexpo.com/ads/>. [3.21] What is a cimbasso? On Thu Feb 2 07:59:23 1995, Randy Campora <campora@peabody.jhu.edu> wrote the following in the message entitled "What's a Cimbasso?": (NEED PERMISSION!!!!!!!!!!!!) I the most basic terms, cimbasso as originally used in Italian meant simply _Brass Bass_. Nowadays it means a valve contrabass trombone, cylindrical in design, usually the lower body of which rests on the floor, and the bell is angled to be more or less parallel to the floor. But in the old days, they often wrote for Cimbasso simply because the composer had no idea what kind of brass bass would show up in the pit, owing to the great variety of kinky instruments the Italians had. <HR> On Thu Feb 2 12:23:11 1995, David Hummer <DGH@JILA.COLORADO.EDU> wrote the following in the message entitled "cimbasso": (NEED PERMISSION!!!!!!!!!!!!) For those of you who are curious about the cimbasso, look in "The Tuba Family" by Clifford Bevan. There is a photograph of one opposite page 97 and an interesting discussion on the "Great Cimbasso Mystery" on page 212. <HR> On Thu Jan 23 15:36:53 1997, Jennifer A Yost <yostjen@mail.auburn.edu> wrote the following in the message entitled "R: e Cimbasso": (NEED PERMISSION!!!!!!!!!!!!) ...For those of you interested, there is an article in the Winter 1996 Tuba Journal regarding the Cimbasso. The article is written by Clifford Bevan and entitled "Any More for the Cimbasso?" Just to summarize--after research, Bevan discovered that the Cimbasso was an Italian bass trombone: It "had been defined as a narrow bore tuba in B-flat; an ophicleide; and a bass, or maybe contrabass, trombone" (Tuba Journal 50). The article gives any information and resources you may be looking for.... [3.22] Where can I get information about the contrabass trombone? See Douglas Nunn's <d.j.e.nunn@durham.ac.uk> Web page "an exceedingly small list of links relating to the contrabass trombone" at URL: <http://capella.dur.ac.uk/doug/contrabass_trombone.html>. [3.23] Where can I get information about the bass trombone? See the "New Method for the Modern Bass Trombone" by Eliezer Aharoni <eanogmus@netvision.net.il> published by Noga Music for a very thorough description of bass trombone tunings, position charts and exercises. See Douglas Yeo's <doug@yeodoug.com> "Resources" Web page at URL: <http://www.yeodoug.com/yeores.html>. [3.24] Where can I get more information on the alto trombone? See Robert Kehle's <rkehle@pittstate.edu> Web page, "Alto Trombone Homepage", at URL: <http://www.pittstate.edu/music/altotrombonehomepage.html>. [3.25] Where can I get more information on the soprano trombone? See Douglas Nunn's <d.j.e.nunn@durham.ac.uk> Web page "Everything you didn't really want to know about soprano trombones, piccolo trombones, and slide trumpets, and consequently never asked..." at URL: <http://capella.dur.ac.uk/doug/small_trombone.html>. [3.26] What are some standard trombone mouthpiece dimensions? See the following URL off the Trombone Homepage: <http://www.missouri.edu/~cceric/mmp.html>. [3.27] How can I remove the lacquer from my bell section? On 25 Jun 97 12:06:32 -0700, Van Strandberg <van@smtp.gkd.com> wrote the following in the message entitled "Re: lacquer": TRUST ME.. This works,.. Fill your bathtub with HOT water, and 1/4 cup of rubbing alcohol.. after about 20 min, drain, and fill one more time with SCALDING hot water.. Next, about 1/2 hour later, boil a pot of water, and slowly pour it over your bell. Use a sponge to wipe off excess lacquer... [3.28] What is an "open wrap" trombone? On Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:28:52 -0500, Tom Izzo <jeanvaljean@ntsource.com> wrote the following in the message entitled "Re: open wrap vs. ?": ... Open wrap (or open wrapping) is a "straightening out" of the bends in trombone valve attachment tubing (see question [3.8] What is an F attachment?). In other words, fewer bends. The advantages are a freer blowing instrument (when the valve is engaged) because there is less resistance. Disadvantages can include a greater potential for damage because the valve attachment tubing is not as well protected. But it all depends on the brand, some brands' open wrapping processes are not as "exposed" as others. ... [3.29] Where can I send my instrument to get it lacquered in different colors? The L.A. Sax Company can do this for approximately $250. Check out the following Web page for more information <http://www.lasax.com/cfinish.htm>. [3.30] What can I do to alleviate shoulder problems caused by a heavy dual-valve bass trombone? On Sat, 13 Dec 1997 03:17:17, Eliezer Aharoni <eanogmus@netvision.net.il> wrote the following in the message entitled, "Re: Back/Shoulder Pain": ... I claim that double valve instruments are dangerous for your health. The combination of their weight, plus the fact that your left hand simultaneously supports AND activate the triggers, causes abuse and faster ware of the shoulders. A more detailed warning is on the inside cover of my "New Method for the Modern Bass Trombone", 4th edition. What I suggest is: 1. Get also a single valve (another instrument, bell, or detachable unit that can replace your double valve). 2. Do a big part of your practicing on the single valve. 3. Split practicing into shorter sessions and bigger brakes. 4. Do relaxing exercises for your hands and shoulders in brakes. 5. If you have a trombone stand, try resting your left elbow on it when you play. Adjust to the right height and tighten strongly so that it doesn't collapse. 6. See an orthopedist and a physiotherapist. 7. Do some swimming - very relaxed without straining. Swim some on your back, using arms' full range. Hope that helps. -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.m8.ntu.edu.tw) ◆ From: fourier.math.nt