精華區beta Sixers 關於我們 聯絡資訊
Does 'Moneyball' work in the NBA? Moneyball 在籃球領域真的有搞頭嗎? By Stuart London / PhillyBurbs.com Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 10:27 am http://tinyurl.com/9964m8f I saw and enjoyed the movie "Moneyball" with Brad Pitt, just like many others. It now appears we might have our own version of it right here in Philadelphia. 喜歡布萊德彼特在Moneyball裡面cosplay Billy Beane的表現嗎? 現在我想費城球迷似乎有自家版本的 Moneyball 可以看了。 With Rod Thorn entering the final year of his contract as general manager of the Philadelphia 76ers, many of the names floated around to replace him have one thing in common: They are more comfortable in front of a computer them sitting in metal stands at a playground. 在Rod Thorn的合約進入了最後一年之後, 很多人的名字被列入了他的繼任人選名單當中, 但是這些人似乎有個共通點: 比起在球場旁邊觀察球員, 他們更適合在電腦旁邊當個宅宅。 One has an MBA from Stanford, another is a Harvard graduate. Not the usual breeding ground for talent evaluators, at least the ones who look at the actual talent. 我統計一下: 這群人當中有一個史丹佛MBA,一個哈佛畢業。 跟一般的管理人員翻找才能的方式相比,這群人有很大的不同, 雖然他們的工作一樣是在找尋真正的人才, 但是他們更像是一個真正的管理人才。 The plot of Moneyball is that Oakland A's general manager Billy Beane does not have the money to replace the players that are leaving so he hires a statistical wizard (Jonah Hill) who can mathematically find players who are low-salaried but fill the holes statistically left by the departing players. Jonah Hill for GM of the Sixers? Why not? 錢球的舞台就是當A's的豆爺沒有足夠的錢去補足球員離開之後, 所留下來的戰力真空,所以他僱用了數據頭子 Jonah Hill, 他的專長是用演算法來找出 C/P 值更高的球員, 用更少的金錢,去追求相當的戰力來彌補失去的關鍵球員的績效。 像是 Jonah Hill 這樣的人能當七六人的GM嗎? 或者應該說,如果有機會,為什麼不呢? It is more romantic to think of some guy who played against Wilt Chamberlain at Overbrook puffing on a cigar and doling out words of wisdom on how judging a player's "ups" is better than a guy running a computer program on the best qualities in a power forward. 顯然一個在西費城邊溪球場對抗過Wilt Chamberlain的人, 抽著雪茄然後吐出他的智慧之語(按: 顯然在酸紅頭), 對著各種球員品頭論足, 似乎要比一個宅宅跑程式去比較哪個大前鋒比較好, 要來得比較浪漫一點。 But is it worse to have some scout watch all the players available in a draft and think Darko Milicic or Sharone Wright or Kenny Payne can play – when they can’t. 但是不代表說找個宅宅球探去跑程式就會比找個球東征西討, 去看所有在自己的選秀籤上可能選到的所有球員, 並且去想說 Darko Milicic 或 Sharone Wright 或 Kenny Payne 能不能打球來得壞。(而且事實上,他們根本沒辦法打, 看他們打球簡直就是浪費時間的行為) Most NBA general managers are cut more from the guy puffing on the cigar who has hours of stories of "back in the day." But many also have analytical guys who look at players' stats and their value. Unfortunately, in this day and age of the salary cap, you almost have to. 大部分的GM已經裁掉了那些抽雪茄且只會說"以前怎樣怎樣"的印象派, 但是他們卻轉而僱用了那些分析宅宅們去盯著球員們的數據報表與各種 績效與價值的組合。 非常遺憾的,以前的美好回不去了。 當你活在當下,而且被可怕的Salary Cap壓住的時候, 這似乎是存活的唯一方式。 But the importance of having the superstar to take you over the top is not found statistically. I am not sure on paper trading Andre Iguodala (remember, he stuffs the stat sheet!), Moe Harkless, Nikola Vucevic and a first-round pick for Andrew Bynum and Jason Richardson makes sense. 但是有些東西是數據算不出來的,像是一個超級巨星的重要性。 至少我就不相信在純粹的數字上, 把AI9, Moe, Vucevic, 未來第一輪拿去換 Bynum 跟 J-Rich 是合乎常理的。 (不要忘了隊長霸佔數據跟boxscore的魔法!!) However, in the real world of the NBA, having a legitimate big-time center brings more value than just the points and rebounds they get. There is a big difference between baseball and basketball success. 但是,在真實的世界裡面,一個正統的主宰中鋒, 他的價值顯然超越了他們在報表上所拿到的分數或者籃板。 這也是在籃球跟棒球當中很重要的差距。 Baseball is a game of nine individual parts in the field, a pitcher throwing by himself and a lone batter in the box. Chemistry does not mean much in baseball as everyone is sort of on their own island doing whatever position they are in is suppose to (pitch, catch, bat). 棒球是個守備方有九個獨立的選手守備, 且一個投手專心對付一個打者的比賽。 在棒球裡面,所謂的化學效應對球隊的整體表現而言, 沒有籃球一般如此強大的影響力, 在場上,一個獨立的選手只要處理自己獨自的位置應該背負的任務。 (意味著在棒球場上任何細小的能力幾乎都可以被切出來看) Basketball is different. You have five players on a team running an offense together and another five working together on defense to stop them. If a right fielder drops a fly ball, the left fielder cannot help him. But if a forward gets beat by the guy with the ball, a center can come in and block a shot and erase the forward’s error. 籃球的世界就很不一樣。 你同時有著五個球員組成一個小組,而他們有著一起進行拆解對手 五個球員組成的團隊防守的任務。 一個右外野手要是掉了球沒有接到,左外野手是愛莫能助的。 但是如果一個小前鋒被人帶球過了,中鋒可以逕行上前 把他的出手蓋掉,並且在紙上彌補那個小前鋒的過錯。 On paper, the Oklahoma City Thunder was the better team against the Miami Heat in the NBA finals. After all, the Heat had just three good players. But things like playoff experience and desire factor in off the balance sheets and that resulted in a Heat championship. 舉個例子,在帳面上,雷霆是個比熱火還要好的球隊。 你想想,熱火只有三個卓越的球員。但是在冠軍賽修羅場當中, 他們有著雷霆所沒有的季後賽經驗以及對冠軍的可望, 而這不是一般的資產負債表算得出來的東西, 也是為何熱火最終能得到冠軍的重要因素。 So can a statistical whiz be the general manager? Sure he can. But he also has to have people around him with old-fashioned basketball sense to guide him when the computer program might be leading him in the wrong direction. 所以一個數據頭能不能當GM?當然可以阿。 但是他仍然需要一些真正懂籃球的人來輔佐他, 提醒電腦可能給他錯誤的資訊與方向,以便進行必要的修正。 (按: 哈哈哈哈,Morey你看看你) After all, do not forget that despite all the ballyhoo, Billy Beane has yet to get the A’s to a World Series since adopting the Moneyball philosophy. Of course having super-cheap owners can throw any statistical program out of whack. 結論是,儘管被媒體捧上了天, Billy Beane跟他的Moneyball其實也還沒有把綠帽帶回世界大賽。 當你有個小氣的老闆的時候,有再好的演算法都不管用。 -- 這邊要特別註明一下: 豆子爺最大的目的是在有限的籌碼當中維持球隊的競爭力, 並且毫不放棄搬家到San Jose的機會(巨人一直在檔) 如果給豆子爺更多的錢, 他也不會純看數據,而且純看數據本身就是誤會, 他追求的是投資報酬率更好的球員,以減少大牌球員離開後的損失。 說穿了他現階段根本不是以冠軍為目標的GM,即便可能有少數球季打得特別好, 你也不會看到他真正的all-in。 給他足夠的預算,他也能打造一個真正的傳統強隊給你看。 -- To crazyjamie: 真的不能轉唷 qq ★crazyjamie 當然不可以阿 我的形象XDDD ★crazyjamie 我的原則是:有髒話的東西不要公開讓大家看到 To crazyjamie: 我可以幫你消音 XD ★crazyjamie 你轉出去我怎麼對得起我我廣大的女性朋友 ( ︶︿︶)_╭∩╮ -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 111.243.215.86 ※ 編輯: willyt 來自: 111.243.215.86 (09/01 20:38)
LABOYS:球探報告有相當多的項度,遠超過球迷想像,然後球探會在每 09/01 20:37
LABOYS:個向度後面都評分(1-10分之類的),饒富趣味的是,有一些 09/01 20:38
LABOYS:給分的項度他們是秘而不宣的,可以說是每隊的商業機密XD 09/01 20:38
willyt:每個球隊,甚至每個教練在挑球員本來就有他著重的部份XD 09/01 20:39
LABOYS:至於球探的結果GM買不買帳,就是另一個故事了... 09/01 20:39
willyt:也不能算bias,真的是獨家心法XD 09/01 20:39
asd831129:如果目標是總冠軍的話 籃球比較不適合玩Moneyball 09/01 21:14
asd831129:跟棒球比起來 籃球出現黑馬的機率不高 出現了也沒辦法 09/01 21:15
willyt:我想主要還是在介紹專業經理人跟演算法 09/01 21:16
willyt:在現在的NBA已經有一席之地 09/01 21:17
asd831129:一路贏到總冠軍 基本上強者贏的機率大很多 追求C/P 09/01 21:17
asd831129:值高的 通常不是最頂級的 09/01 21:18
asd831129:嗯嗯 推文跟內文沒什麼關係啦xd 09/01 21:18
ledsopp:這讓我想到"大債時代"裡頭說的:談到風險管理,人跟豬一樣 09/02 16:26
ledsopp:要阻止某些老闆在支票本上簽下那些蠢合約太難啦 09/02 16:27