Re: [新聞] TotalBiscuit跟Crank的聲明

[claus (La Jolla)]

http://esfiworld.com/news/jessica-responds-mma-apologize-then-i-will-forget-everything-and-forgive-you
http://tinyurl.com/9lvvcnm

以下是包嫂對MMA訪談的回應


※ 引述《claus (La Jolla)》之銘言：
: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376041&currentpage=203
: http://tinyurl.com/9q9yvbu
: TIG: jessica revealed the state of slayers in the past interview. Have you
: seen it yet?
: 看過包嫂之前的訪談了嘛？
: Mma: yes, however there are a lot of distortions in that article. But this
: does not mean that the players are right and Jessica is wrong. I just wish
: that people would look at this objectively and not just from one point of
: view.
: 看過了。訪談裡很多事情不太正確，但這不代表選手們是對的而包嫂是錯的。我只是
: 希望人們客觀看事情而不是只憑一面之詞
: TIG: you have a contract with slayers until November 6th. Can you explain us
: the contract signing process?
: 你跟SlayerS合約到11/6，對吧？
: Mma: before signing the contract, Jessica said that she made it similar to a
: celebrity (actors/actresses) contract. At first, she told us that the only
: way to get a sponsor was to let the potential sponsors know that ‘we have
: play x, y and z’. So kimdongju (ganzi), kimsangjun (puzzle), kimdongwon
: (ryung), yangjunshik (Alicia) along with myself signed the contract. As
: mentioned before from Jessica, it was purely for the purpose of securing a
: sponsor and she made us at ease with that statement, and the contract was
: signed. Some players that signed did not even bother to read the contract and
: trusted Jessica’s words.
: 簽約前包嫂有說他把合約弄得像演藝人員的合約。他告訴我們為了要得到贊助，要讓
: 贊助知道我們會有哪些選手。所以Ganzi Puzzle Ryung Alicia 和我都有簽約。有人
: 甚是沒看就簽了

Q: MMA first talked about how the contract was done based on an entertainer's
contract.
A: Yes it was. The only place where professional player contracts exist is
KeSPA. But I could not obtain any information on contract formats or
contexts. I was involved in many components of entertainment for players such
as interviews and match preparations, so I used a commonly used contract in
the entertainment industry as a reference.
Agents for entertainers or sports professionals exist, so I proceeded [with
the contract] with this in mind. That doesn't mean I used everything in the
sample contract, as I only used it for profit sharing and category order.
There is no legal issue at all. In the entertainment industry, people have
been talking about the so-called 'slavery contract' issue a lot. When I asked
my manager about it, he said the contract is called a 'slavery contract' if
the contract period is excessively long, like five to 10 years, while profit
sharing ratio is fewer than 5:5 in favor of the manager. So when I signed
contracts with five players, I put in a 9:1 ratio for prizes under one
million Won (Approx. 905 USD) and 8:2 for over two million Won.

唯一有職業合約的事KESPA，但我沒門道取得合約內容，但由於我本身在演藝界，對訪談
或是比賽準備還蠻有經驗，所以用了演藝界常用的合約當範本。我只用了其中的收入抽成
以及項目順序。沒什麼法律問題。在演藝界，他們會稱這種合約為奴隸合約，是當合約
超過5年以上，或是經紀人抽成超過五成。所以當我跟五位隊員簽約的時候，抽成比例是
1百萬韓元以下抽一成，2百萬以上抽兩成。


: TIG: what was the incident involving manager J?
: J經理又是怎麼一回事
: Mma: I think there needs to be an explanation about manager J. manager J was
: an employee of corporation R, who were sponsors of Slayers. At first, he
: dropped by the team house to say hello now and then, but his visits increased
: in frequency and the guys at the team house got friendly with him. He was
: similar to us in age and was pretty easy to talk to, so he was popular with
: the younger guys as well. Boxer liked soccer so we played it a lot within the
: team. Manager J started playing with us after a while and he was pretty good,
: so he was our team’s ace (for soccer). When we bought soccer jerseys as a
: team, we even bought one for him as well.
: But a few months later, manager J left his company. Since he was jobless, he
: came to our team house more often and Jessica saw fit to give him access to
: the team’s facebook and twitter account since he was fluent in English and
: german. He had a charming personality, so after time he eventually became in
: charge of the foreign business, which was previously Cella’s work.
: At the same time, Jessica said not to worry or even to ask about the
: sponsors. We were contracted with corporation R at the time when we got to
: know manager J, so jessica’s statement of the 2 month thing is wrong (not
: sure what he’s referring to here). The incident started at this time.
: J本來是R企業的員工，而R企業又是我們的贊助商。一開始他只是來我們宿舍跟我們
: 打招呼，後來次數越來越頻繁，而我們也跟他越來越熟。他跟我們年紀相似而且很
: 健談，所以還蠻受歡迎的。包哥愛踢足球，而J足球也很厲害，所以他有跟我們一起踢
: ，甚至還是我們的王牌。買足球隊服的時候還甚至幫他買。
: 幾個月後，J離職了，所以更常來我們這裡。包嫂覺得可以讓他管FB和推特，逐漸的
: 他開始負責了國外業務。同時，包嫂說不用擔心贊助。在我們剛認識J的時候R已經
: 跟我們簽約了，所以包嫂說的兩個月的事情（不知道是什麼事情）是錯的。所有的
: 一切都從這時開始。
: TIG: could you explain more about this incident
: Mma: it was right before my code s match versus alive (feb, 15th, 2012). I
: heard something shocking from manager J that Jessica was forwarding my
: potential personal sponsor to boxer. I couldn’t believe it. I got confused
: but I had no one talk to. My mind was heavily burdened for the weeks
: afterwards
: After much turmoil, I confessed to crank about my feelings. We talked a lot.
: Crank was also sad because he couldn’t do anything for me, so it was hard on
: him as well. As this went on, I got more stressed and even thought of
: quitting the game. If I said this to Jessica, I thought manager J would get
: the blame too so I did not talk.
: After, my performance fell and I just focused on the game more since there
: was nothing I could do about it. Crank suggested that I go talk to boxer as
: he would know more from a player’s viewpoint. So I talked to boxer. Boxer
: knew this was dangerous waters so he checked around for a few days and told
: me that there was nothing of that nature (potential personal sponsor) going
: on.
: 2012 2月中的時候，J跟我說包嫂要把我可能的個人贊助轉給包哥。我無法相信，超困惑，
: 但沒有人可以談這件事情。那幾個禮拜我思緒超沈重的。之後我跟Crank講了我的感受
: ，我們聊了很多。Crank因為他沒什麼能幫我的而很難過。之後我甚至想退休。如果我跟
: 包嫂講，我覺得J會被責怪所以我沒講。之後我的表現下滑了，所以我選擇專注在比賽上
: ，反正我也不能做什麼。Crank建議去找包哥談，所以我去找包哥。包哥知道事態的嚴重
: 所以他去查證了幾天，後來說沒有什麼個人贊助的事情
: Jessica did not release any details about our sponsors so I had no choice but
: to trust manager J regarding this matter because he was a former employee of
: corporation R. at the same time, I lost faith in Jessica because of how she
: treated the players and the arguments she picked with other players (on other
: teams).
: As the manager J incident was wrapping up, boxer and Jessica gathered all the
: players and said ‘if there is anything we did wrong, it was letting manager
: J come into the team house, so let’s try harder and get the team house
: atmosphere up again’. However, it was already too late. There was no way to
: turn back the situation because the players were already too deeply wounded.
: In this environment, I lived at the team house for a few months. Crank saw
: the seriousness of this situation and appealed individually to boxer and
: Jessica, but nothing changed. In contrast, Jessica was saying things like ‘
: the team is like this because of mma’ and pointing the blame towards me.
: Then the contract annulment thing blew up.
: 包嫂沒有告知我們任何有關贊助商的細節，所以我沒有選擇只能去相信曾經是R企業
: 員工的J。同時，在看到包嫂怎麼對隊友以及和其他隊的人吵架情形之後，我也對包
: 嫂失去信心。在J經理事件即將處理完的時候，包哥包嫂聚集大家說「如果我們有做錯
: 什麼，那就是讓J近來，讓我們更加努力讓氣氛回來吧」但已經太晚了，因為隊員們
: 都已經受傷太深了。
: 我在宿舍這種環境下住了幾個月。Crank看到事情的嚴重性而直接去找包哥包嫂反應
: ，但什麼都沒改變。相對的，包嫂都說是因為我而造成的，都在怪我。後來取消合約
: 的事情發生了

Q: On the previous interview, you said that you knew manager J for only two
months. Why did you say it like that?
A: I said two months because that was the period where he lived with us after
quitting company R. I knew manager J when he was in company R and he even
went to the GSL finals last year with our uniform on, so how could I not
remember him?

兩個月是指J經理從R社離職之後來和我們住的兩個月。我之前就認識他了

Q: MMA said that he heard from manager J about the team's sponsorship and
your notice to him to stop caring about sponsorship.
A: Sponsorship is something that players should not worry about. This is the
management side. Back then we had sponsorships with Intel and Razer but they
were individual sponsorships to BoxeR. If there was an individual sponsorship
offer to specific player, that player indeed has a right to know about it and
he/she should ask about it as well. But no such situation came to me so I
don't understand why he wanted to know about it.

贊助的事情隊員無須煩惱，那是管理階層該煩惱的事情。之前我們Inter和Razor的贊助
都是包哥的個人贊助。如果有給特定人的個人贊助，那個人的確有權利知道也應該要詢
問，但並沒有這類事情發生，所以我不清楚他為什麼要問這個

Q: What do you think of his comment that the individual sponsorship offer
going to BoxeR instead?
A: I definitely said that is not true. MMA indeed asked BoxeR about it and
BoxeR then asked me. I was actually very sad when BoxeR asked me back then. I
said, 'I know your [BoxeR] personality and why would I not tell you this.'
What I later found out was that company N and company S offered sponsorships
for MMA but they went to BoxeR instead. Sponsorship matters were dealt with
by manager J, so I directly contacted related parties in those companies to
confirm. However, they didn't even know who manager J was. Do other StarCraft
2 teams' players have the same questions and do managers answer them? I
really do not understand this issue.

MMA的確有問包哥關於個人贊助的事情，包哥接著問我。包哥問我的時候其實我很傷心
，我說「我知道你的個性，所以如果真的這樣我會不跟你講嗎？」後來我才得知N和S
器各本來都有計畫提供贊助給MMA，但後來都選擇了包哥。那時贊助的事情都是J負責的
，所以我直接去問N和S社負責的人，但他們甚至連J是誰都不知道。我對這爭議真的不
太清楚

Q: In your previous interview, you said you did not receive any money from
the players. But MMA revealed his bank account history to show that there
were deposits [to your account].
A: When I said I did not receive any money, I meant as in result. Players
signed the contracts on November of last year and I had certain promises to
keep to players. I did what was told in the contracts. Players soon received
prizes after contractual terms began. But why didn't they deposit the money
until February next year? I did indeed tell them to deposit the money. But it
was only to teach them about the importance of the contract.
At some point in February, I ordered coach Hong to 'tell contracted players
to deposit portion of their prizes according to the contract.' About 10
million Won (Approx. 9,050 USD) was deposited. I then gathered the players
and explained how this money will be used. I said, 'This money will not be
used on me, but rather used on coaching staffs Ryu, Hong, and J manager's
salaries, and the rest will be used on benefits for players.'
The benefits here are better soccer balls, winter uniforms. and badminton
gear for players who didn’t like to play soccer. I also used the money on
taxi fees whenever I was unable to transport players. I even joked that 'You
can sue me if I used it for my own.'

當我說我沒拿到錢時，我是結果論。合約是去年十一月簽的，我也有承諾要遵守。合約
裡我該做的都做了。簽合約之後隊員開始拿到比賽獎金，但為什麼他們直到隔年二月才
依照合約匯錢呢？我的確有告訴他們要匯錢，但也是為了讓他們知道合約的重要性。二
月的某個時候，我要洪教練跟有合約的隊員說要依據合約匯錢。大約9000美金匯進來了
。我召集了隊員們並且解釋了這些錢會怎麼運用。我說「這些錢不會用在我身上，但會
用在龍教練洪教練還有J的薪水上。剩下會是用在隊員福利上。」福利包括好一點的足球
，冬天制服，不踢足球的隊員則買羽毛球用具。也會用在我沒辦法載球員時的計程車費
。我甚至開玩笑說「如果我花在我身上你們可以去告我」

Q: What are your thoughts on MMA's comment that contracts were supposedly
only for sending documents for sponsors?
A: Not true. I never said it won't be fulfilled. In the end of the last year,
not only us but every team was in need of signing contracts with their
players. According to MMA's claim, when I asked to deposit the portion of the
money, shouldn't he raise an objection? When I didn't say anything and just
waited, no deposits were made. I thought players, after receiving their
prizes, would ask a question or deposit the money as written in the contract,
but they never did. I thought they may not go to deposit any time soon, so I
requested such an order.
Truthfully, deposits or no deposits, there was no problem with the
management. Players received their prizes directly and I even paid for
player's taxes. I felt very irate actually. Even though these players were
young, they seemed like they had complete lack of integrity for contracts.
Once they are in contracts, they are professional players. Not amateurs. I
spent hundreds of millions of Won for managing the team but I did not try to
recoup the money from this. Just think about it. How much can it be for
accumulating portion of their total prizes?

跟MMA講的不一樣，簽合約不是只是為了贊助商。去年底，不只我們但每個戰隊都有
簽合約的需求了。根據MMA的說法，當我要求他匯款抽成時，不是應該提出異議嗎？
當我什麼都沒提的時候，沒有人會錢。我以為隊員在拿到獎金之後，會去問如何依照
合約上繳抽成的部分，但沒人問。我以為他們短時間內都不會匯錢，所以我提出匯錢
的要求。
說實話，有沒有匯錢，都不是管理階層有問題。隊員是直接拿到獎金，我甚至還幫他
們付稅。我其實很生氣，雖然他們很年輕，但他們完全缺乏尊重合約的自律性。我在
戰隊上花了上億韓元且從來沒想要有所回收。自己想想，光靠抽成是可以拿多少？

Q: He also said that coach Ryu left the team because of unpaid salaries.
A: First of all, I need to explain how coach Ryu came to SlayerS. One day MMA
told me he had a good friend of his. That was Won Ryu. Mr. Ryu wanted to
introduce himself to me through MMA. So I met with him, and listened to him
as he said he wanted to be a personal coach to MMA. He said to me, 'Living in
the team house might be difficult, so I need to commute to the work from
home.'

先解釋一下龍教練。有天MMA說他有個好朋友（龍教練）想要見個面。我們碰面了。他
說他希望擔任MMA的私人教練，但也說要住在宿舍有困難，所以需要通勤。

After accepting his proposal, I watched him coming to the house every day. So
I told him, 'Why don't you just come and live in the house if you're going to
work like this?' A few days later, he came to the house with his mother. I
discussed with his mother about the future of e-sports and told her that
'there is no place in the Starcraft 2 scene that pays salaries to coaches and
managers,' and added, 'Things will grow in the future.' Coach Ryu's mother
agreed with me and left. Would I be able to pay coach Ryu, who never had any
experiences at all? In the team we already had coach Hong, who was formerly a
player before. I could not give salaries to coach Ryu when I wasn't even
paying coach Hong. I only accepted him thinking that it will help MMA. Later
I heard that he 'made a verbal contract with MMA,' so I replied 'So be it.'
Coach Ryu never advised on players other than MMA for their matches. He never
started as a SlayerS coach, but was an individual coach for MMA.
When MMA went to Blizzcon, I sent coach Ryu as well since he was in a
contract with MMA. MMA's assertion on cellphone roaming fees is a
speculation. Back then there was a problem in player's booth in Blizzcon and
I heard that coach Ryu make an objection. Although there was nothing I could
do from Korea, he called me anyway. I said, 'There is nothing I can do to
solve so use text instead.' I did not go there with them, so what can I do
even if he calls me? Wasn't it just a waste of money?

接受提議之後，我看他每天都來宿舍，所以乾脆提議說你何不來跟我們一起住。幾天之後
他跟他媽媽一起來談。我跟他媽媽說目前沒有任何地方SC2教練經理有薪水的，但未來
可能有所成長。他媽媽同意後離開了。龍教練沒有任何經驗，況且我們已經有洪教練，
而且洪教練曾經是個選手，而且並沒有薪水，我怎麼可能付薪水給龍教練。我是因為
可能有助於MMA才同意的。後來我聽說他跟MMA有口頭約定，我回應說「那就這樣吧」龍
教練沒有對MMA以外的選手提出指導，他僅是MMA的個人教練，不是戰隊教練。MMA去
blizzcon的時候，因為龍教練跟MMA有合約，所以就送龍教練去。MMA說的手機漫遊費也
很。那時候比賽室有點問題所以龍教練提出抗議。儘管當時身在韓國的我沒有任何辦法
介入，龍教練還是打給我了。我說「我沒有任何辦法，所以改用簡訊吧」我沒跟去，所
以就算打給我我又能如何？不是只是浪費錢嗎？

Anyway, prize money for Blizzcon went to MMA, but he did not give portion of
money to coach Ryu who was in a contract with MMA. Coach Ryu then came to me
to complain. He wanted me to speak for him. So I told MMA a couple of times
about it and MMA said he would pay coach Ryu but he never did. Then he later
tossed out a graphics card he had won from some tournament to coach Ryu.
What I want to say is that it's not that I didn't pay coach Ryu's salary, but
MMA didn't pay him the money he promised, and that's why he left the team. On
the contrary, I accommodated him with free meals and housing.

總之，獎金直接給了MMA，但他沒有把約好的部分給龍教練。龍教練有找我抱怨，要我
跟MMA說。所以我有跟MMA提過幾次，MMA也說他會給龍教練錢，但他並沒有。他後來把
某個比賽贏的顯卡拿出來給龍教練。我要說的是不是我不給龍教練薪水，而是MMA沒有
給他答應好的錢，才是他離開戰隊的原因。相反的，我還提供他住宿及三餐

: TIG: by contract annulment, you mean the contract between the team and
: players?
: Mma: yes, Jessica said in her interview that there was no splitting of the
: prizes from individual events but told us to split the money because of ‘
: coach ryu’s wages and player maintenance funds’ at the time, cella received
: some portion of player’s foreign prize winnings (less than ~$1000 USD).
: Jessica said to give a portion of the winnings from foreign events. So as
: agreed on the contract, we sent a portion of the winnings to an account
: Jessica provided. After this, nothing changed still.
: Boxer and Jessica almost never came to the practice room and we were managed
: by the coaches only. We still had to take public transportation to get to and
: from the venues and the team house. Even in the winter, we had to commute
: between gimpo and mokdong (about 50~85min by bus/subway) and we realized that
: this affected our conditions for the matches that we had to play that day.
: After discussing this with the players, we also noticed that there were no
: differences between the contracted players and the non-contract players and
: came to a conclusion that this would not be good for the team, so we decided
: to bring up the issue to boxer and Jessica.
: 包嫂在訪談裡說他沒有從比賽抽成，但要我們分一些獎金出來負擔Ryu教練以及球隊運作
: 基金，當時Cella有拿到一些國外比賽的獎金（少於1000美金）。包嫂說要分一部份
: 獎金出來，所以根據合約，我們將一部份獎金轉到一個包嫂提供的帳戶。
: 包哥包嫂幾乎很少來練習室，我們都是教練在管的。我們還是要搭大眾運輸。就算是
: 冬天也要花50-85分鐘搭公車/地鐵去比賽會場，而我們也知道這會影響我們當天的比賽
: 手感。另外在隊員間討論之後，我們注意到有簽約跟沒簽約的隊員沒有什麼待遇上的差別
: ，我們覺得這對戰隊不好，所以向包哥包嫂反應。
: The reply that came back was ‘we cant give the car to cella’ and ‘coach
: ryu has no license, so he can’t drive at all’. Crank couldn’t stand this,
: so he volunteered to drive and drove the players to the gomtv studios. Crank
: was part of the motorized military before, so he had plenty of driving
: experience.

Q: What about problems with transportation for matches?
A: When I was filming for TV drama, (SlayerS) moved from Yeouido to Kimpo.
Since I was absent due to filming, I told coach Hong to take care of
transportation. I told him about this beforehand and players knew about it.
When we were initially at Yeouido, I brought them to (the studio) by myself
most of the time.
But things changed in Kimpo. Sponsors disappeared. I became the financial
provider and I needed to work to fulfill the commitment. We originally drove
a van and an imported car. I felt like players did not appreciate for
commuting to the studio. I wanted players to feel thankful for what I have
done to them. From the house to the final subway stop, there was no
difference in taxi and bus in terms of time but cost difference was huge. I
felt sorry for them so I paid their taxi fees sometimes.

那時候我在拍連續劇，我們也剛搬家。因為工作，所以我要洪教練負責交通。我事先
就跟他講了，隊員們也都知道。當我們還沒搬家前，大部分時間都是我自己送他們去
。但搬家後事情改變了。贊助沒了，所以我必須工作才能兌現我的義務。我們之前是
用廂型車以及進口車。我覺得隊員們並沒有珍惜來往的接送。我希望他們知道感激我
為他們做的事情。從宿舍到地鐵站，搭計程車或公車時間上沒差但費用上差很多。我
對他們感到抱歉，所以有時候會幫他們付計程車錢。


: There was no change and the players’ discontent grew. I asked coach ryu if
: he had received any wages and he told me that he did not receive anything
: until February of 2012. Furthermore, when cella accompanied me to mlg in the
: states, he had to pay for the roaming charges on his cell phone even though
: Jessica promised to pay for it. Coach ryu asked Jessica about the promised
: wages and was told that ‘we don’t collect money from the players, you go
: collect it for yourself’.
: About an hour after Jessica told ryu the aforementioned statement, she called
: me and crank to her house. Boxer and Jessica told me everything and me and
: crank talked of the discontent that we had. At the end, Jessica said that ‘
: lets nullify the contract right now’ and asked if we wanted to rip our
: contracts, but I didn’t want to. We were returned the money that we paid
: after a week.
: 我們得到的回應是「我們不能把車給Cella」，「Ryu教練沒有駕照」Crank受不了，所以
: 自願充當司機。Crank當兵時有充分的駕駛經驗。但什麼都沒有改變，不滿也日益高漲。
: 我問Ryu教練他有沒有收到任何薪資，而他告訴我直到2012 2月前都沒有收到。Cella陪我
: MLG的時候，包嫂有答應要幫付手機漫遊的錢，但後來還是Cella自己付。當Ryu教練去問
: 包嫂有關薪水的事情的時候，包嫂說「我們不向隊員要錢，你自己去要」
: 在跟Ryu講了那些之後的一個小時，他把我跟Crank叫到他家。我們跟包哥包嫂把所有事情
: 都講開了。最後，包嫂說，我們現在把合約取消掉，問我們要不要取消，但我不想。一
: 個禮拜後我們拿回了之前我們付的錢。
: TIG: this contrasts with jessica’s statement that a contract was remaining.
: When did you verify this?
: Mma: we trusted Jessica. But this was our mistake. After Jessica said ‘lets
: rip the contracts’, she gathered all the players and said ‘I wont hold you
: back if you want to leave the team’.
: At this time, the players that wanted to go to a foreign team (ganzi, taeja)
: had their contracts nullified. After a few days, we asked if the contract was
: really nullified. However, Jessica said that the contract was only nullified
: for those that wanted to leave the team on that day only. After hearing this,
: the players were very disappointed at Jessica and I was hurt by jessica’s
: duplicity.
: *note by editor here says taeja was not in a contract with slayers.
: 我們相信包嫂，但那是我們的失誤。在包嫂說要把合約取消掉後，他召集了所以隊員
: ，然後說如果我們想離隊他不會阻止。當時想去國外戰隊的Ganzi Taeja順利離開了。
: 幾天後我們去問我們的合約是否真的取消了，但包嫂說只有當天表示要離隊的人合約
: 才被取消掉。在聽到這之後，我們對包嫂非常失望，我被包嫂的兩面個性傷得很重
: TIG: do you have anything to say about your relegation to B-team in july?
: Mma: it was right before the GSTL match. After the aforementioned events, I
: needed to clear my mind so I went out on Saturday. I cleared my mind and
: returned. the game was coming up, so the only thing I was thinking was about
: winning. Jessica stated that I did not return to the team house, but this is
: false. I did all my tasks, then left on Saturday night and returned on Sunday
: morning.
: After returning, ryung told me what boxer said: ‘mma is like a cancer cell,
: so I have to quarantine you from him’. After hearing this, I lost all
: passion for preparing for the GSTL and the team. The thought that ran through
: my mind was ‘im trying so hard for my team, but this is what they think of me
: ’ and I despaired.
: 在那些事情之後，我要讓思緒清楚點，所以我禮拜六出去了。我沈澱了思緒然後回去了
: 。及將要比GSTL了，我腦裡也只想要贏。包嫂說我沒有回宿舍但這是假的。我做了我
: 的工作，然後禮拜六晚上離開，禮拜天早上救回去了。回去之後，Ryung告訴我說包哥說
: 「MMA就像個癌細胞，所以我需要把你從他身邊隔離」聽到這之後，我喪失所以為GSTL
: 或戰隊拼戰的熱誠。一想到我這麼拼命為戰隊但他們這樣想我讓我很絕望

Q: Was there any difference in treatment between contracted and
non-contracted players?
A: Of course not. There was no need to have contracts with players with no
result. That doesn’t' mean I need to discriminate against them. It wasn't
like those five players were earning money and gave it to me.

有沒有合約的待遇沒有差。沒有成績的隊員沒有合約的需要，但這不代表我有差別
待遇。又不是說那五個有合約的隊員是有賺錢給我。

Q: After you said you would tear off the contract, you said players wishing
to leave can leave.
A: I told them to leave the team if they want to do so. I told them to come
talk to me personally if they didn’t want to speak out. Then only Ganzi came
to me a few days later.

我說他們如果想離隊就離隊。如果他們不想公開表示則可以私下找我談。幾天之後
只有Ganzi來找我

Q: MMA also expressed his opinions on his demotion to the B-team.
A: When I came looking for him on Saturday, he went out. I talked with Ryung
on Sunday at noon, and he said MMA wasn't at the house on Sunday. He sent me
a message through BoxeR that he did not want to participate in GSTL. So I
intentionally sent him to GSTL. During this time he wasn't even practicing
for individual leagues.
Players like Alicia and MMA told me that they did not participate in team
matches. Alicia's reason was that he did not like losing. He said he didn't
like the pressure. I think it was the last season when MMA didn't appear [in
GSTL] for a while as well.

禮拜天中午MMA還沒回來。他透過包哥跟我說他不想參加GSTL。所以我故意在GSTL派他
出賽。這時間他甚是沒有在為個人賽做準備。Alicia MMA都跟我說不想參加團體賽。
Alicia說他不喜歡輸。不喜歡那個壓力。我回想大概是從上季MMA就很少出現在GSTL

Q: MMA also told that he had said he wanted to leave the team twice.
A: He wanted to leave for few times. There were some offers of sponsorship
and establishment from oversea. I could not inform this to the players until
they were finalized. How could I face them if the deals fall apart after
telling them about these?

MMA曾經數次說過要離開。曾經有些海外的贊助機會，但在還沒確定之前我都不能跟
當事人講。如果後來沒談成的話，我要怎麼面對他們？

Q: What about his assertion on hiding information on transfers?
A: I hid nothing. I search for teams because he wanted to move to a foreign
team. A foreign team asked me how much it would cost to transfer MMA. So I
simply stated his value.
I told this team how much it would be after combining their offer on
salaries, various costs for taking care of MMA, and the money needed to be
paid to me for his remaining contractual period. I actually said that it
would be better for them to use this amount to acquire our team as a whole.
But I never received any replies. The negotiation didn't fail, but rather I
simply replied to their request and even suggested an acquisition.

我沒有隱藏任何東西。因為他想去國外戰隊，我就開始找。某戰隊問我MMA轉隊要多少錢
，我就回了他的價值。我告訴他們薪水、照顧MMA的費用、以及給我補償他剩下合約時間
的總額。我甚是說拿那個錢來把我們整隊買下來會比較好。但我沒收到任何回應。不是
談判失敗，而我是單純回應他們的問題，甚至提出收買整隊的提議。


: TIG: what kind of communication went between you and boxer?
: Mma: boxer told me that I was relegated to the b-team so I should go home. I
: wondered why I got relegated and did not understand. I wish boxer and Jessica
: would have told me what I did wrong, but there was no communication between
: us and I was relegated.
: After hearing this from ryung, I packed my bags and told boxer ‘im leaving
: so you don’t need to relegate me’. Boxer said that I was under a contract
: so I couldn’t leave on my free will. This made my emotions run high and I
: told him that this is a slavery contract.
: About this statement, I am very sorry. The slavery contract was the contract
: between the individuals of the management and me, not between the team and
: me, so even if I transferred, I had to give a portion of the tournament
: winnings to Jessica. There was silence for 10 minutes and boxer said ‘we do
: things our way’ and the conversation ended. The next day, the article
: regarding relegation came out.
: 包哥跟我講我被放到二軍然後該回家。我希望包哥包嫂可以告訴我我做錯了什麼而被
: 放到二軍，但沒有任何溝通。我打包然後跟包哥說我要離開了所以你們不用下放我。
: 包哥說我仍然有合約所以不能離開，這時候情緒使然讓我說了奴隸合約的事情。
: 關於這，我非常抱歉。那個奴隸合約是我跟經理階層之間的合約，跟戰隊無關，所以
: 就算我轉隊，我還是要抽成給包嫂。大約十分鐘寂靜之後，包哥說「我們照我們的方式
: 做事」然後對談就結束了。隔天被下放的消息就出來了

Q: MMA said BoxeR's reason for halting his gaming career was because of
Jessica's internal/external interferences.
A: Back then BoxeR tended to get angry very easily whenever he lost a game in
the practice. I contacted him about matters unrelated to gaming, and he took
it out on me and said I was preventing him from practicing. Then BoxeR said
he was exhausted and perhaps in need of a break [from gaming]. MMA basically
falsely incriminated me. BoxeR gave up on his career because of other players.
BoxeR is not a type of person to side with me because I am his girlfriend.
Although I do feel sad about it but he's always fair. He always listens to
both sides before deciding. He even once said that 'I feel like people are
attacking [me] because I play StarCraft 2.'
Also I cannot say anything about his games. All I could say in GSTL was
something like, 'The opponent seems to be all-ining so let's attack him
first.' I sometimes commented on things for fun, but I do not even ask him
how things are going with the practice. Even if I ask, his mouth is too heavy
to spare any words, even with me.

那時包哥在輸之後很容易生氣。我跟他講無關比賽的事情時，他發洩在我身上說我
妨礙他練習。後來包哥說他累了，可能需要暫時休息。MMA誣賴我。包哥退休是因為
其他隊員。包哥不是那種因為我是他女友所以會站在我這邊的人。雖然我會感覺到
傷心但他是公平的。他永遠都會聽雙方意見才會做出決定。他有一次甚至說「我覺得
人們會攻擊我是因為我玩SC2」
另外我也不能說有關他的比賽。在GSTL我能說的也只有類似「對方似乎會ALL IN，所以
我們先出手吧」我有時候會因為有趣而講一些話，但我不會問他練習的情形。就算
我問，他不會有回應，就算是我也是一樣。


: TIG: after the article came out, Jessica came to the interview for code a
: (july 25th)
: Mma: I met with Jessica and asked ‘how could you write an article like this’
: . i asked ‘did I even ask for a transfer to a foreign team?’ and the reply
: that came back was ‘I’ll rewrite the article if you want’. I was
: flabbergasted. She then explained me the terms of the ‘slavery contract’. ‘
: this is nothing. In the entertainment industry, the standard for a contract
: is 5 or 10 years’
: I wondered the relevance of bringing up terms of contracts in the
: entertainment industry. After, Jessica said that she will not receive any
: statements about the relegation and cut off questions from reporters. So the
: interview went out, but it was only about the game itself. I had a little bit
: to say at the end about my current situation and feelings to the fans.
: 後來Code A訪談包嫂有來，我遇到包嫂問他說他怎麼可以寫那樣的文章呢。我問包嫂
: 「我有要求轉到外國戰隊嗎」，我得到的回應是「如果你要我可以重寫那篇文章」我
: 超氣的。他向我解釋「奴隸合約」。在演藝界，制式合約大多五年或十年。
: TIG: you told Jessica you wanted to leave twice
: Mma: yes, that’s right. The first time was when everyone at the team house
: was having a hard time because of the incident with manager J and I could not
: stand the management badmouthing me so I did not want to be a part of the
: team anymore. However there were those that helped me out a lot before and I
: was thankful, so I did not tell them of the current events (I think he’s
: referring to manager/coaches of other teams). instead, I said I wanted a
: transfer to a foreign team. Shortly afterwards, talks began with slayers and
: a foreign team (TL). During this, a lot of facts were hidden from me (by
: Jessica) so my mistrust grew even more. So I said I wanted to leave the team
: for a second time
: 我曾經兩次跟包嫂說我要離開。第一次是因為J事件而責怪責任到我身上的時候。但當
: 時還是有人幫助我很多，我非常感謝，所以我沒有跟管理階層的人講到實際發生的事情
: ，而是講說我想換到國外戰隊。在這之後戰隊跟TL有一些對談。過程中包嫂對我隱瞞了
: 很多事情，所以我的不信任感增加更多。這時是我第二次說想離隊
: TIG: Jessica said that when you went to foreign events, no one (other
: Koreans) said hello to you and ostracized you while badmouthing Jessica. Is
: this true?
: Mma: I went to more foreign events than any other members of my team. So I
: was able to hear bad rumors of Jessica from other people. Although I heard
: these, I respected her so I was very objective about them. I told Jessica of
: these, and Jessica said wistfully that she would like to become friendly with
: other teams as well.
: Even after this, there was no change and Jessica even said ‘this is how we
: don’t get ignored by other teams’. I said that there were other methods of
: going about this and she said that ‘you have to be vocal to be heard’.
: Afterwards, I did not tell Jessica what other people thought of her.
: 我參加最多國外比賽，所以我有聽到一些包嫂不好的謠言。因為我還是非常尊敬包嫂，
: 所以我把聽到的都跟包嫂講。包嫂跟我說他也希望可以跟其他戰隊的人友好。在這之後
: 也沒改變，包嫂甚至說「這樣我們才不會被其他隊漠視」（我猜是網路上吵架的事）。
: 我說應該有其他方法，但包嫂說你必須大聲講話才能被聽到。在這之後我再也沒跟包嫂
: 講其他人怎麼看他的事情了
: TIG: can you tell us of hidden facts regarding the transfer
: Mma: afterwards, I was able to find out about the trade negotiations. An
: incredibly large sum of money was demanded for me even though I had 3 months
: left on my contract. The talks broke down. This was because of the absurd
: transfer fee and other inquiries were made to teams that I didn’t even want
: to go to.
: After a month, I was able to verify that in some negotiations, my transfer
: fee was zero. This change in behavior in Jessica is what ultimately made
: boxer move to SKT1.
: 我後來發現儘管我還有三個月合約在身，在對談中他們還是要求了大筆轉隊費。因為
: 無理的轉隊費，對談結束了。他們有向一些我壓根沒有想去的戰隊詢問接收我的可能
: 姓。一個月後，我得知在一些對談中我的轉隊費是零。包嫂的這些改變是最後導致
: 包哥回SKT1的原因
: TIG: in april, boxer stated that he stopped playing because of the players.
: What do you think of this statement
: Mma: I think the biggest reason why boxer stopped playing is because of
: jessica’s constant interference in and out of the game. Boxer likes to focus
: and practice. Although he gets angry after a loss, he endures it and
: continues playing. In situations like this, calls kept coming about
: unimportant stuff and he sometimes complained that he couldn’t practice
: because of Jessica.
: Because of this, the atmosphere in the team house fell. Jessica likes to read
: various community sites and berated boxer by saying things like ‘why did you
: do this’, ‘why didn’t you use this strategy’. Overall, the meddling was
: pretty severe.
: Boxer sometimes said that he wanted to quit gaming because of all the
: meddling. Because of this, boxer and Jessica argued a lot. During this time
: period, an article was published saying that boxer’s shoulder conditions
: were not good. Although his shoulders were not very good from previous times,
: I think the main reason for boxer’s quitting as a player is because of
: Jessica.
: 四月的時候，包哥說因為隊員的原因而暫時停止出賽。但我覺得最大的原因是因為包嫂
: 持續的干預比賽內外的事情。包哥喜歡專注於練習，雖然比賽輸了會很生氣，但他會去
: 接受並且繼續練習。在這樣的情況下，包嫂會一直打來講一些有的沒有的，包哥有時候
: 會抱怨因為包嫂的原因而無法練習
: 因為這樣，宿舍氣氛變的很糟。包嫂愛看很多社群網站，然後對包哥說「你為什麼這樣
: 做，為什麼不用這個戰術」總而言之，干預的情形很嚴重。包哥甚是有說過因為這些干
: 預甚至想直接退休。因為這樣，包哥包嫂常常吵架。這期間，有報導說包哥肩膀情形不
: 太好。雖然他肩膀從前就不太好，但我覺得包哥退休的主要原因是因為包嫂
: From a player’s perspective, the interview with Jessica about the team’s
: disbanding seems to be directed wholly at the players. She fails to
: acknowledge that she had faults with her managerial skills and tries to blame
: all of it on us. Therefore, boxer did not lose his will to play because of us.
: 從隊員角度來看，包嫂有關戰隊解散的訪談全部都在責怪隊員，他沒有承認他經營
: 能力上的失誤。包哥並不是因為我們才喪失動力的
: TIG: Jessica said that mma has no desire to move to a kespa team or play in
: proleague
: 包嫂說你沒有興趣轉到kespa?
: Mma: when I was doing well, Jessica said that when slayers could negotiate
: with kespa teams in the future, she would sell me to SKT1 for a large amount
: of money. She said that skt1 is the best terran team and wished that I would
: do better than fantasy (when he transfers).
: Before I started playing sc2, I was a practice student in skt1. I was in poor
: health there. When I played more than 25 games a day, my index finger would
: start to get paralyzed and my whole hand would hurt. So I only played about
: 20 games and I spent the rest of the time watching replays and VODS, as well
: as researching. Back then, the proleague system was a place where I couldn’t
: do well physically. Somehow, this statement got blown out of proportion and I
: do not understand this.
: 在我表現還好的時候時，包嫂有說過當SlayerS可以跟kespa談的時候，他會用高價把我
: 賣給SKT1。他說那是人族最好的戰隊，希望我可以比太子還出色
: 在我打SC2之前，我曾經是skt1的練習生。那時我健康情形不好，如果一天打超過25場
: 比賽，我食指會麻痺整個手會痛。所以我一天大概幾打個20場然後剩下時間都在看replay
: 或vod以及想戰術。但不知怎麼搞的這種說法竟然被扭曲成那樣，我無法理解

Q: According to MMA's words, there is a contrast in talks about Proleague.
A: That was when KeSPA was about to switch to StarCraft 2. I told the players
previously as well. 'When time goes by and if we manage to compete in the
Proleague, play games like you never did before.' Although it was a joke, I
said that I will also be happy to receive transfer fees.
I didn't come to this scene to earn big money. When I was searching for a
team after (MMA) requested a transfer to the foreign team, I told him, 'Going
to a KeSPA team will give you a more steady income.' If your performance was
okay, you could have gone to anywhere. SKT T1 could even give you a call and
I had no reason to hold you. That's what I said to all players.
But then he said he tried pro gamer life in StarCraft and it was not suitable
for him so he didn't want to go back. To my eyes, all of our players seemed
to be doing well. I thought all of them were good candidates to become
coaches someday. So I told him not to make up his mind already. I told him
people do not know what will happen to them, so just play his games well.
When we were at Yeouido, we worked like a KeSPA team. Then players complained
that it was too hard for them. So I told them to choose their environment and
methods by themselves. Then their performances started dipping. So I
tightened [the practice] again. Once their performances got better, I
loosened the grip and it dipped down yet again. If you just think about the
results, they were good only when there was a tight regimen. And then players
said that results aren't everything.

我開玩笑的說「我很樂意收轉隊費」（如果是因為表現好而被KESPA挖角）
我做遮不是為了賺錢。當MMA要求要轉國外戰隊而我在找戰隊時，我告訴他去KESPA
戰隊會有比較穩定的收入。如果你表現好，你想去哪都可以。可能連SKT1會打給你而
我也沒阻止你的原因。我對所有人都這麼說。但他說他不想打職業星海了。在我看來，
我們所有隊員都表現不錯，甚至可能有一天都可以成為教練。我告訴他不要這麼快下決定
，我說人們不知道將來會發生什麼事情，好好打好比賽就好。我們曾經像KESPA戰隊一樣
運作，隊員抱怨太嚴苛，所以我告訴他們自己決定訓練環境和方法。後來我們成績
開始下滑，所以我又開始嚴格了。當成績開始有起色後，我又放鬆了，但成績又下滑
了。結果論來看，只有當嚴格一點的時候成績才好。但隊員又說成績不是一切。


: TIG: anything else you want to say?
: Mma: I want to thank boxer and Jessica for making me a famous player as well
: as giving me an opportunity in slayers. However, the events that occurred up
: until now have affected the team in a very bad way and I have also gotten
: hurt. I want to apologize to boxer and Jessica about these events.
: However, I want to state that jessica’s interview in many ways were
: distorted and a lot of players received unnecessary blame for it. That’s why
: they agreed to interviews. I apologize for making the fans worry so much. I
: would also like to apologize for any wrongdoings done by the plays, on behalf
: of the players. Again, I am very sorry.
: 我要謝謝包哥包嫂讓我成名以及給我機會在SlayerS表現。但是所發生的事情嚴重的影響
: 要戰隊，我也受傷了。針對這些事情我向包哥包嫂表達歉意。
: 但是，我要表明包嫂訪談中很多地方都被扭曲，很多隊員承擔了不關的指責，所以他們
: 才會出來接受訪談。我讓粉絲擔心這麼多也方常抱歉。我也代表隊員們，對於他們可能
: 做出的不太好的事情道歉。再次的，我非常抱歉。

Q: Is there anything else you wish to say?
A: I am really tired now. The essence is that this is who I am. Even if one
is a sworn enemy, I do not abandon him or her if one accepts his or her
mistake. I would even forgive him or her. But not like this interview. It
only reveals deeper truth. There are still more to be revealed than what was
already revealed. I didn't reveal everything and showed only this much
because I was afraid that remaining fans will leave the scene when more is
revealed. If you have no evidence to back your claims, accept your mistakes
and apologize. Then I will forget everything and forgive you.

我現在很累。重點是這就是我的為人。就算是死敵，只要他們承認錯誤，我不會遺棄
他們。我甚至會員量他們。還有更多八卦可以揭露。我沒有揭露是因為不希望還剩下
的粉絲都走光。如果你沒有證據支持你的說法，承認你的錯誤然後道歉。則我會忘記
一切以及原諒你。

: original article:
: http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?category=13439&id=1319677
: ※ 引述《kira925 (1 2 3 4 疾風炭)》之銘言：
: : 配宵夜的東西來了
: : TIG MMA採訪
: : http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?category=13439&id=1319677
: : 對不起，這是韓文T_T
: : 連TL論壇都在求翻譯

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 140.112.133.187
推 a8330028:3000鎂 還真的會被抽喔......
推 kullan:關於KeSPA合約那段 那ESF選手還是要老K點頭才算職業選手?
→ mysterydream:你會站在你女友那邊嗎? (y/n)
推 sezna:MMA某個比賽贏的顯卡拿出來給龍教練。 .....顯卡人族
→ kullan:因為只有老K能發職業證照啊= =?
推 Aggro:顯卡人族確定(蓋章
推 a8330028:練習生沒薪水 選手只有獎金 教練也沒薪水 悲慘世界.....
→ sezna:比起來Cella也太偉大了
推 capssan:不遵守合約....zZz
推 sakubo:每篇風向都小有差異  這篇風向會如何呢?  我很在意
推 OnlyTD:包嫂一波   MMA贏顯卡給Ryu當薪資..OMG
推 me1inda:最後還來個  還有更多八卦可以揭露 (太恐怖了)
→ tomo1026:其實MMA說的包嫂都很委婉地(?)承認
→ a8330028:MMA的3千鎂 扣掉國外繳稅3成 然後再被抽2成 痾.......
推 fatedate:看完了   結論  顯卡是真的喔
推 kira925:英文翻譯在贊助商的部分據說翻錯了
→ capssan:顯卡當酬勞呵呵呵MMA怎麼都不提一下
→ Tylor:除了顯卡很糟外,MMA這波看起來殺光了包嫂二礦的農民
→ kullan:MMA:GTX690一塊多少錢你去查查! 還說我小氣!!
推 Adonisy:MMA的私人教練那段，他真的不錯說，可惜去熊津了
→ Adonisy:長的很像小孩不笨的導演 XD
→ Aggro:不過看來抽成是用在團隊上 這也算合理?
推 sakubo:可惜顯卡沒有強制通行力
→ Adonisy:不過我覺得包嫂講的比較清楚一點
→ kullan:但熊津的T都不怎麼樣啊
推 potionx:贊助>成績>練習>其他問題   從$角度想好像也可以解釋很多
推 Infernity:搞到最後會變成互揭瘡疤嗎= =
推 aCCQ:顯卡這段如果是真的 就這件事而言MMA是蠻糟糕的...
推 Saza:GTX690抽1成變620 好慘
→ Adonisy:顯卡這段是MMA空投被血雨了....
→ Aggro:與其說瘡疤 但目前就道理上包嫂算站的住腳 只要她沒A錢
→ Aggro:基本上除了她帶心沒帶好 戰隊面沒啥能攻擊她
→ evilraistlin:兩邊都有問題吧...但MMA這個也太誇張了...
→ Adonisy:我一直不認為包嫂要a什麼錢...@_@ 淘空公司嗎？
→ Saza:應該沒人說他A錢吧 都在說管理戰隊的事情
推 allqwdd:我很好奇教練都沒錢 他們平常吃甚麼
推 kullan:SlayerS已經窮透了 還能A啥錢?
推 GigiBuffon:MMA跟他教練不是朋友嗎  該不會因為顯卡事件決裂吧
推 OnlyTD:MMA一開始信J經理說包嫂有A贊助一事
→ kullan:都跑去熊津了 還不算決裂嗎?
推 finaltrial:包嫂有說提供龍教練住宿及三餐
推 dakkon:至少MMA有說啊
推 Infernity:戰隊當然有提供食宿啊...
→ Adonisy:那贊助商改贊助包哥是合理的，MMA你太菜了還不夠格搶包哥
→ Saza:MMA不是說是個人贊助變成包哥的嗎 我記錯了嗎 需要前情回顧
推 UltraKill:隊員認為成績不是一切.. 他們真把這當屁還收容所喔
推 sezna:Ryu去熊津了 不想幫MMA
推 capssan:靠 幫你拿好成績換一塊顯卡 是我就塞進他體內再轉隊
→ finaltrial:J跟MMA說是包嫂對個人贊助動手腳
推 icenogaum:所以猴哥應該已經鋪好到大SKT1的路了(誤
推 LOKI930351:MMA:時間被安排 演一場意外 妳悄然走開~~~
→ LOKI930351:包嫂:我送你離開 千里之外 你無聲黑白
推 hanhong:包嫂靠她自己的演藝事業都能賺不少了
→ LOKI930351:此時無聲勝有聲，兩人默視至天明
推 sezna:MMA錢到底都花去哪 竟然會想出顯卡代替$$付給教練
推 capssan:事實也證明MMA的成績這教練功勞最大 換一塊顯卡? 吃屎吧
推 blackcat3399:錢花去保養了吧(?)
推 UltraKill:KESPA制度才是王道 不然像他們那種態度打的比賽誰想看
→ dakkon:搞不好是真的,打八折的保養去了很多次
推 Adonisy:不過知道 MMA私下的真實面，很傷心...
→ Aggro:難怪包哥這種KESPA出來的會看不下去一走了之
推 Saza:包嫂也證實一開始有個人贊助MMA只是變包哥 請J來對質就知道了
推 bluesheng:還有更多八卦可以揭露..這戰鬥力太強大了 包嫂imba啊..
→ Adonisy:如果要贊助MMA，包嫂應該高興都來不及，怎麼會a掉
→ Aggro:有計畫而以吧
推 Flyingheart:可能包嫂當初的打算是等K加入SC2後 利用包哥在K的人脈
→ Adonisy:或是自動轉給包哥？包哥根本不可能和小夥子爭這個
→ a8330028:不過像什麼看牙做臉的 包嫂就不要提了 這樣很小家子氣
推 allqwdd:我的意思是教練真的就只求溫飽 沒有賺到任何錢 這樣很奇怪
→ Flyingheart:把優秀隊員賣過去~~  可惜隊員們不爭氣
→ evilraistlin:MMA知道有贊助 後來又變包哥 有人講說他被婊了 多半
→ evilraistlin:是會相信的吧...再怎麼信任 扯到錢就難講了
→ a524528:難說喔，但是聽在MMA耳裡就是覺得包哥把他的贊助搶了
推 capssan:簡單說就是MMA絕德本來是他的錢全都變成戰隊的  不爽 顆顆
→ capssan:包哥把贊助全都用在戰隊也不是新聞了吧
→ Aggro:包哥比較像是KESPA的先鋒吧 到時接上來的時候可以當兩邊橋梁
推 Adonisy:所以 MMA也真是,就算真的被搶了，他是老大又怎樣？
→ Aggro:至於贊助 包哥又不是啥自私的人 他在計較啥= =
推 GUYDA:MMA在這篇是黑得發亮阿
推 Flyingheart:包哥的算盤就是加入Kespa啊 隊員們想不到or不想
推 Saza:MMA:礦才剛開好 丟了16隻礦羅結果火車跑近來5秒燒光 你氣不氣
→ capssan:贊助MMA的話MMA可以拿大部分阿 變包哥的他就只能拿戰隊的
推 damnedfish:所以她承認一開始有轉隊費，MMA沒說錯
推 a524528:說真的有贊助被搶了，我不相信有人不會不爽
推 fatedate:沒包哥哪來的mma  $$$$$$$
→ evilraistlin:真的被搶了 那就是從MMA口袋裡拿錢阿 當然會計較XD
推 finaltrial:個人贊助的部份明顯就是包嫂和MMA認知有差異又沒溝通好
推 kullan:當時J經理肯定加油添醋一大堆 所以青澀的MMA就動搖了
→ a524528:這不是要不要報恩的問題阿，贊助我我拿一部分回去還好
→ evilraistlin:他可是會拿顯卡給教練的人 你想要他多大方...
推 OnlyTD:本篇重點:贊助費 轉隊費
→ a524528:搶我的贊助就......
→ Aggro:不過是不是真的被搶也還沒定論 金主考量下給包哥也不意外
推 a8330028:不可否認 幾乎所有人都說跟包哥訓練很辛苦
→ Aggro:根本談不上搶吧
推 angraing:不是很清楚制度 有轉隊費不對嗎@@
→ Aggro:包哥就老派訓練出來的 沒辦法阿
→ Saza:包嫂一開始說沒有 還貼email自清 結果現在又變有了
推 Adonisy:包哥還有幾年可以打？所以我才對 MMA真實面失望
推 Lattecafem:包嫂說一開始說沒有轉隊費阿
→ OnlyTD:轉隊費疑慮在於金錢量大小是否壓迫到選手轉隊導致失敗
→ Lattecafem:多打一個說
→ a524528:MMA這樣沒錯阿，就跟你老爸老媽要跟你拿所有薪水然後再給
→ a524528:你零用錢，你不會不開心?
→ evilraistlin:打電競為了錢也很正常吧 但是對來幫自己的教練 給他
→ evilraistlin:比賽贏來的顯卡 這個就很鳥蛋了...
→ Saza:而且感覺金額不小 包嫂都可以拿來開玩笑買整隊了
→ Aggro:現在問題是根本還沒確定是不是你真的有薪水就懷疑爸媽阿
推 finaltrial:好歹也先自己拿去賣掉換成錢 XD
→ a524528:就是有人跟你說你有錢拿，結果包哥從中插手阿
→ evilraistlin:MMA怎麼會知道真相 又不可能跟廠商確認 又有J經理在
→ evilraistlin:旁邊煽風點火
推 s8923135:金主決定轉給包哥贊助 而不是包哥去搶的話 MMA有啥好氣?
→ Aggro:所以他選擇相信J 經理 而不是一手照顧他的包哥他們
推 OnlyTD:另外  包嫂一開始講法是說 沒有轉隊費這回事  現在又反了
→ a524528:J可能就跟MMA說是包哥建議贊助他
→ OnlyTD:金主贊助 真的是MMA錯信了
推 hotcom:只想享受戰隊資源卻不想付出義務
→ finaltrial:就是包嫂沒跟MMA溝通好，所以J很容易從中作梗
推 sezna:下面有新進展
推 fatedate:轉隊費還是0阿(都是照顧mma有關的費用)你要不要再看清楚
→ Aggro:他可能覺得補償=/=轉隊費吧 我猜
→ fatedate:various costs for taking care of MMA, and the money
→ OnlyTD:重新看了英文原文..轉隊費細節和翻譯有點差距
→ a524528:補償也太多，包嫂都開玩笑說可以買下整對了耶
→ Flyingheart:受不了kespa的訓練 到時被kespa輾壓就別哀~~
→ OnlyTD:那個不是包嫂要另一隊給Slayers的
→ capssan:就算很多 也都是MMA拿的不是嗎 S會拿到錢嗎= =?
→ fatedate:後面還有一段   懶得再找來貼
→ OnlyTD:而是拿去照顧MMA 供他生活以及薪水 另外還有補償mma-slayer
→ OnlyTD:合約的細項補償
→ evilraistlin:其實這個就是轉隊費了吧...那有收什麼照顧費的......
→ OnlyTD:補償那部份  視作轉隊費並無不可(mlb.nba常有的事
→ fatedate:所以結論是  mma的開銷太大     別隊買不起
→ OnlyTD:照顧費是新隊伍要去照顧MMA 不是要給Slayers的
推 angraing:伙食費
→ Saza:你不要把無視補償費用好嗎 又不知道比例就瞎扯
→ capssan:所以包嫂才說你買MMA不如把S整隊買下來 還送一堆諧星喔
→ OnlyTD:給Slayers的只有 MMA-Slayers合約中的細項
→ Adonisy:還有做臉費....
→ OnlyTD:沒跟你瞎扯啊  文中我們也不知比例 包嫂的說法自己矛盾
推 kira925:內文是給Jessica 不是給Slayers
→ rodney228:應該只是分析買了MMA大概需要花多少才能維持他原有的待
→ OnlyTD:前面我也提了  包嫂這邊只是交代其中細節  認為沒有轉隊費
→ rodney228:遇，然後應該要補償未走完的合約給slayers
→ Adonisy:只有分析，和真的要賣還差的遠...之後免轉隊費是鬧翻了
→ capssan:轉隊費應該又要跟合約這些分開算才對吧
→ a524528:這種事一定那些隊伍出來證明阿，它們應該是不會出來
→ Aggro:一般運動 轉隊費都是另外給母東家吧
推 OnlyTD:有無轉隊費 個人看法不同 才會變成兩邊認知有差異
→ OnlyTD:我覺得那個不算是"轉隊費"一環   轉隊費應該像是入札金那種
→ rodney228:分開算的話，就真的沒有轉隊費，只要負擔MMA未完的合約
→ OnlyTD:這邊包嫂說法是 MMA生活、薪水   M-S未走完合約中的補償
→ OnlyTD:沒有轉隊費的事情
→ Aggro:不過與其爭名詞 重點應該是包嫂有沒有用高價金額 阻擾其他人
推 capssan:別的運動也會談這些 這些合約也會有提到的
→ momogo11:顯卡那個要問r教練 所以某J那段真的有這事?
→ Aggro:挖角MMA吧 這才是重點
→ capssan:包嫂就算提出高金額也是合法合理的 並不是漫天開價
→ capssan:轉隊費這種才是你可以開價的地方 合約這種寫明了就沒辦法
→ momogo11:所以這女的講話也開始前後不一了
推 Saza:我是說從開銷+補償費用很大一筆不代表MMA開銷很大 又不知比例
→ Saza:不是回應onlyTD你的
推 wowray:有誰把相關人氏通通者來當面談  每次都各說各話
→ Aggro:嚴格來說沒有前後不一阿 那些的確可以不算"轉隊費"
→ momogo11:MMA不爽很正常吧 那時候風光時 MMA成績比BOXER好太多
推 capssan:轉隊費跟合約本來就不同阿= =
推 a524528:也算轉隊費，一般只要負擔他接下來的薪水就好
→ momogo11:如果是在完全不知情情況下被轉走 然後某J又點火一下..
→ capssan:當然合約怎麼寫的  沒人知道~
→ Aggro:但重點沒人確定那筆贊助本來就是給他的 立場上生啥氣?
推 gts123:Ryu去熊津是因為MMA這段還是有疑惑 他們合約怎樣真的很迷
推 capssan:聽說翻譯出來是MMA本來就沒有拿這贊助的機會過..
→ Saza:MMA跟其他教練大概就覺得補償就是轉隊費吧 雙方各自認知不同
→ gts123:另外像ST贏的比賽獎金都歸自己 slayers卻要繳一部份出來
→ Aggro:這是各戰隊作法不同吧
→ gts123:這部分可能會是選手積怨的原因
→ momogo11:阿MMA有說阿 一開始很疑惑 後來看這女的隊上處事方法
→ momogo11:最後導致他相信某J
推 capssan:嗯..本來就沒有的東西也沒辦法跟MMA說什麼吧..囧
→ momogo11:抽成不是那個單位規定不行嗎 還是我記錯
→ Aggro:可是包嫂之前處理也沒啥偏袒部分 包哥也沒不良紀錄
→ capssan:沒有說不能抽成 只說不能跟選手收錢 可以從獎金抽成
→ Aggro:他是看到啥才相信了J...? 真好奇
推 Adonisy:而且J和 MMA年紀相近，很容易信J而不信包哥他們 ORZ
→ capssan:單純因為很要好所以信了吧= = 年齡相近又常混在一起
→ gts123:ESF是規定不能收費 包嫂作的是抽比賽獎金
推 Arnol:完美特務J
→ capssan:贊助這方面又是J在負責的
→ Aggro:如果只看包嫂的說法 會比較像拿不到想要的所以自然鑽牛角尖
→ momogo11:喔喔 我記錯 那段好熟喔 開玩笑的.........
推 finaltrial:冰凍三尺，非一日之寒
→ gts123:抽比賽獎金讓我想到TT有抽軟球去G聯賽的獎金抵交通費
→ finaltrial:J或許從一開始就在佈局？
→ Aggro:橘子好像沒抽SEN的獎金?
→ momogo11:照理來講 要不是白痴 只混兩個月 某J應該有拿出一些文件
→ momogo11:才會讓人相信才對
→ Aggro:不用文件阿 八卦板丟一篇就一堆人信 這不是啥問題
→ Aggro:加上他的職務身分更好騙
推 capssan:他們才十幾二十歲 社會經驗幾乎0 很容易就信了啦= =
→ gts123:我真的覺得抽獎金挺鳥的...當初運營的最好的戰隊耶
推 a524528:沒那麼簡單啦，八卦那信了也不會怎樣，這不同
→ Saza:我覺得帶一個隊伍這麼久沒兩下就被J弄的眾叛親離也很扯吧
→ capssan:台灣不到處一堆2X歲的被騙進直銷 差不多意思啦
→ Aggro:一路都在打電動 根本沒啥社會經歷很容易中獎阿 大家都是這樣
→ capssan:其實我覺得MMA他們提到戰隊的問題都是在J來之後才放大
→ momogo11:數字版都喊爽的 不能比吧= =
→ momogo11:某J:你聽過安立嗎 (誤
推 finaltrial:前面有看到新聞說J在2005就開始從事電競相關的事業
→ capssan:本來可能沒啥感覺 J戳出洞以後他們才越來越覺得怎樣怎樣
推 Adonisy:只混兩個月很夠了...不然要混多久？
→ Aggro:不扯吧 父母養這麼大 還不是很多人反逆
→ Aggro:社會上很多這種例子 父母的話不聽 聽朋友的話
→ Saza:你玩三國志看到忠誠度100的也要先送馬送好久阿
→ finaltrial:不對，是更早，從2001就開始
→ dakkon:職業戰隊抽成很正常吧
→ Aggro:抽成就戰隊規定 我覺得沒啥好戰的 而且一開始也接受
推 gts123:如果ESF沒有戰隊有抽獎金包嫂抽獎金這樣會覺得他黑很正常阿
→ capssan:該戰的是選手吃好穿好 該付的義務卻要人家來催-.-...
→ Aggro:現在問題應該是包嫂有沒有叼MMA離隊吧@@
推 Adonisy:不過說真的，看MMA的比賽態度，這傢伙沒有職業的自覺
→ Adonisy:包哥難怪會傷心，昨晚最後一場，包哥肯定不會如此，錯愛了
→ Saza:包嫂有跟MMA賭氣吧 不想上硬排之類的 這算刁他嗎
→ Aggro:每隊規定不同阿..而且這應該也不是啥秘密 有抱怨也該早就說
→ gts123:職業戰隊抽成不正常吧...當初爭議很大的TSL 都沒聽過這事了
→ capssan:抽成哪裡不正常了= =
→ Adonisy:MMA也賭氣啊，丟礦敗人品被隱刀砍死gg
→ gts123:他們是訂合約後才知道要抽獎金吧
→ capssan:ESF也有規定這是可以的阿
→ Aggro:這東西怎麼追加?
→ Aggro:一開始就知道吧
→ capssan:而且抽的又不是很多 100W鎂以下抽1成不是嗎
推 a524528:一定一開始就知道阿，這應該不是他們鬧翻的主因
推 OnlyTD:100萬是韓元 不是美元
推 finaltrial:合約一開始就有寫吧，但MMA也說有些人連看都沒看就簽了
推 gts123:不是一百萬韓嗎...
→ capssan:哦 是韓元 我誤會了
→ Aggro:連看都沒看 實在很難護航阿 包嫂態度又不像詐騙他們
→ gts123:合約是去年十一月簽的...
→ capssan:但這樣會算抽很多嗎= =..
→ gts123:2成耶....算多了 你想想其他戰隊都沒抽成就自己戰隊要抽
→ Aggro:隔壁2000遇到也只能摸摸鼻子 包嫂這也不是刻意壓榨 是用在戰
→ Aggro:隊也很難說黑
→ gts123:講是用在戰隊上沒錯 不過被抽的心理一定會有疑惑...
→ a524528:2成其實算多了
→ momogo11:很多 不過自己愛簽沒辦法
推 OnlyTD:韓國西門夜說
→ Aggro:抓到她A就告她阿xd 人家都這麼說了
→ alz:這又不是當兵非當不可，嫌多可以不要簽啊
推 capssan:別的戰隊都沒抽嗎= =?
→ OnlyTD:但是隊內細節 包嫂那邊又沒錯  囧>"
→ capssan:我只是好奇  真的只有S會抽獎金喔?
→ gts123:ACE說他們都沒抽 TSL當初還想發薪水 應該也沒抽
→ a524528:我想應該不只
→ OnlyTD:而且簽或不簽看個人  有人也是沒簽一樣打完轉隊啊
→ Aggro:包嫂現在這麼理直氣壯就是她沒A 一切都有憑據很難動她
→ momogo11:這要問其他隊的選手了
→ OnlyTD:還要等其他人出來表示了XD
→ capssan:我是覺得以當初S那種豪華程度 有抽也不過分吧= =
→ momogo11:自己同意合約的確沒啥好說的啦..
→ momogo11:可是好像沒有選手抱怨這部分吧
→ gts123:如果戰隊運營的很好應該可以不靠抽選手錢 來運作吧...
→ Aggro:S的待遇不知道算好還不好 這沒比較真的很難說是對是錯
→ OnlyTD:抽來是作戰隊營運我覺得能接受   但被ManJ騙說被A走
→ OnlyTD:世惠心頇的吧?
→ capssan:S最一開始的時候是最豪華的
→ OnlyTD:是會心寒的吧?
→ gts123:我是覺得這會是個問題點啦...
→ momogo11:應該是說 大筆的贊助費 被轉移走 所以法理上可能也不算A
→ OnlyTD:戰隊花太多錢保持環境搞到包哥包嫂拿自己積蓄去養..很難好
→ momogo11:應該這個是引爆點
→ Aggro:這要看情況阿 如果像人家說的有豪華待遇 抽真的也不過分就是
→ OnlyTD:但現在說法是合約中有表明會抽成 也有說用途是養戰隊.教練
→ Aggro:只是回到原點 這早就知道的東西後來當作藉口也怪怪的
→ OnlyTD:實際上只有當事人知道了  咱們都是鄉民
→ Aggro:再說包嫂又不是不給轉 想轉的都成功了 這...
→ j9145:抽成如果是用在戰隊營運上，這可以接受吧。何況從MMA跟包嫂
推 eminemqoo:之前有到各戰隊訓練室訪問 環境其實大同小異
→ momogo11:恩 繼續看下去XD
推 gts123:11月才簽合約 這不算早了CRANK不是也說簽約成員卻沒好待遇
→ j9145:的幾篇看下來，MMA最後被抽成的部份其實到最後都沒有用到
→ eminemqoo:提到的簽約法就是犯大忌了啊 沒有看細則就簽名
推 capssan:包想的是一視同仁吧..= = 對誰誰誰特別好這很怪吧
→ j9145:好吧，MMA的顯卡拿給別人了
推 Saza:西門不知道有沒有看
→ Saza:一視同仁的話應該大家都不簽 或是大家都簽吧?
→ eminemqoo:有簽約的確實是比較大牌的那幾位
→ gts123:可能MMA會想我付出了獎金 成員都沒付出 也不一定...
→ evilraistlin:最後MMA的顯卡到底流向何方~
→ momogo11:等MMA出來回應吧
推 OnlyTD:                                被Ryu塞到MMA_____了
→ eminemqoo:其實說啥待遇豪華 還是要看收益分配的問題 這也是爭議所
→ dakkon:tt給的根slayers給的差距大過lp比雞腿
→ eminemqoo:在
→ OnlyTD:結果包嫂要MMA撕合約時 把抽成的部份都拿出來-.-
→ Aggro:就這點來說 包嫂挺有guts的....
→ eminemqoo:像DRG 在非正式訪問提到他有從戰隊拿到2000鎂/月的津貼
→ eminemqoo:那Slayers給簽約五人的豪華待遇是?
→ gts123:之前大家都以為MMA是有領包哥薪水的 結果....
→ Aggro:這就不清楚了 沒注意這方面消息 不過如果沒啥待遇
→ Aggro:這戰隊怎被叫作豪門?@@ 因為包哥關係?
→ momogo11:看牙齒和美容吧
→ Aggro:XD
→ momogo11:就是初期表面風光 其實裡面可能跟其他人差不多
推 capssan:可能把錢都投入戰隊福利 結果人家看到別人個人福利太好
→ capssan:就不爽吧
→ momogo11:或著更窮
→ eminemqoo:TSL目前還是non-kespa韓國戰隊中唯一有過年薪制(取消了)
→ gts123:練習室 和專車接送吧 剛開始光INTEL就給了包哥6億韓元
→ momogo11:不然還有一個就是錢運用上有問題 連沒約的 打LOL的也養
→ momogo11:照成他們不爽
→ wtao:牙醫神族  美容人族  12點蟲族
→ wtao:                            (疑?)
→ juicylove:看完我又有點同情jessica了
→ juicylove:有個地方很怪  包嫂說簽約跟沒簽約待遇一樣是正常的
→ juicylove:那簽約的還要被抽成跟綁約  有夠衰  又沒固定薪水
這邊我會覺得是因為那些沒簽約的還沒什麼實績（包嫂有提到），所以沒有獎金收入，
所以根本不用合約

包嫂有提說簽合約的目的只是為了獎金收入的分配（抽成養教練戰隊）

推 gts123:我真的覺得越看越覺得包嫂根本沒想讓戰隊更好 完全沒目標
推 Aggro:其實我也不懂簽約是差在哪邊..@@a
→ juicylove:這種莫名奇妙地合約難怪MMA會反彈
→ momogo11:還有轉隊費 原來是開玩笑的~ 對方那知道阿
→ gts123:tsl是失敗了但他好歹有想提供過薪水給戰隊
→ momogo11:有差阿 你不可以走 韓國西門無誤
→ Aggro:其實更好也太攏統了 能經營長久就很不容易了
推 capssan:其他人也沒東西可以抽吧..
→ Aggro:這點是沒啥好說的 不過她帶人真的很沒一套xd 沒找白臉
→ momogo11:其實論經營部分 小強crank應該都有抱怨過 不過他們覺得很
→ juicylove:另外包嫂說隊員不該擔心贊助的事 但很顯然這樣想不對
→ j9145:簽約是因為包嫂覺得打出名氣時該回饋一下戰隊吧
→ gts123:當初會想說沒贊助沒差 自己養 這部分就很奇怪了...
→ momogo11:OK 沒問題
→ juicylove:經理一直拉不到贊助隊員擔心跟提出質疑也是應該的
→ Aggro:我也覺得應該類似這種想法 戰隊幫你練出成績 回饋一下
→ capssan:其實S會解散跟錢似乎沒有關係..
→ juicylove:再來Ryu教練的部份 MMA跟包嫂講得差異也太大了吧
推 eminemqoo:像MVP戰隊給DRG的待遇 可能就是來自贊助收益分享
→ capssan:不是因為沒錢經營才解散的..
→ Aggro:這倒是
→ gts123:MMA大概也是這想法才簽下去的吧 不過...
→ juicylove:MMA說法中是把R教練當成已被Slayers僱用而非他個人的
→ Aggro:可是S主要靠包哥名氣比較多(應該吧) 不能比吧
→ eminemqoo:當然這種可能就會因為贊助多寡有變動
→ juicylove:如果照jessica的說法 那整個slayers這一年多來的錢都是
推 ainew:選手該擔心的是自己打不出成績
→ gts123:如果成員有領到錢 說不定這件事就不會發生了...
→ juicylove:包哥包嫂自己掏腰包扛下來的
→ gts123:雖然包哥付出不用質疑 但是這情形有點像老闆無能了...
→ Aggro:和包哥無關吧 應該是包嫂管理沒弄好讓人不滿和疑惑
※ 編輯: claus           來自: 140.112.133.187      (10/23 17:43)
→ Jegan:我覺得是員工根本搞不清楚狀況 以為打贏比賽賺大錢那麼簡單
→ Aggro:然後好死不死引狼入室加油添醋又放大一些問題
→ Aggro:搞不好是兩邊想法差異XD 一邊想說你們打好就對管這麼多
→ Aggro:一邊想說你啥都不說我們會怕阿
→ gts123:到現在看來 兩邊想法根本沒交集阿XD
推 capssan:大比賽打贏有錢賺這是一定的啊 每隊都這樣不是嗎
推 gargoyles:這樣看來  包嫂就是錯在沒有把抽成換成電腦週邊
→ wtao:  NO~ 包嫂錯在顯卡 太少ˊ_>ˋ
推 gargoyles:也許外國戰隊給得更多抽得更少  不過說這個是奴隸合約
→ capssan:國外戰隊給年薪的比較多吧? 而且可以到國外虐菜賺外快
→ gargoyles:就太超過  畢竟給了練習環境與曝光度甚至幫忙處理大小事
→ capssan:MMA雖然有道歉說是失言 但你也可以看出他們把這當理所當
→ capssan:然了~
噓 stevenyenyen:有夠好笑 證據都是只用對自己有利的 別人說出不利的
→ stevenyenyen:就要別人有證據 有做沒做不會承認或否定嗎? 就只能等
→ stevenyenyen:證據出來才說話? 不是心虛是啥? 另外還是自己凹
推 scv123:不知獎金的稅多少??怎麼不從獎金扣?要包嫂出??
→ stevenyenyen:開玩笑的說? 這樣別人也能事後都說都是開玩笑的囉?
推 Adonisy:沒簽約應該只能打打線上和網咖，國外就別想了
→ stevenyenyen:後來改知道贊助從MMA改包哥 又說自己不清楚 那到底
→ stevenyenyen:戰隊管理者是誰啊? 出了事就推卸責任 果然是鄉民說
→ stevenyenyen:的 出了社會要懂著保護自己 推卸責任+只拿對自己有利
→ stevenyenyen:證據+裝傻 果然出社會比較成熟 比較能唬弄人
→ gts123:據很久以前MC的說法 韓國內是5% 海外大概30%
推 capssan:他不是說他去查明了之後根本沒有M的贊助這回事嗎
→ capssan:你想笑也把文章看完在笑 不然是出來讓人家笑的
→ momogo11:所以TB完全沒在怕 說你快出招..
推 Tanping:有沒有懶人包...越看越物煞煞
→ Aggro:MMA根本沒有確定的贊助吧...
→ momogo11:贊助那部份 好像還沒有很清楚吧
推 a524528:有沒有贊助是一回事，總之J經理就是讓MMA相信有贊助
→ momogo11:那邊怎演的應該是核心問題 還沒人講的很清楚
→ Aggro:所以他才相信包哥包嫂搶了他的贊助 然後開始不滿
推 gts123:剛開始風光成立 接下來成績越來越好 戰隊卻越來越窮
→ gts123:會有懷疑好像也是很正常的?
→ momogo11:非常正常 又不是沒贊助(初期)
推 APM99:mma當時那麼猛  要找不到贊助很難吧
推 suwilliam:1百萬韓元以下抽一成，2百萬以上抽兩成<=好像哪裡怪怪的
推 wtao:所以說 100~199 萬 不用抽(無誤
推 killerbank:這種抽法還蠻天才的0.0
推 suwilliam:1百萬韓元以下抽兩成，2百萬以上抽一成<=這樣比較正常吧
推 littlebonnie:很多包嫂開玩笑的事情也許別人不覺的開玩笑吧...
推 DrRossi:對包嫂不利的話都變成是在開玩笑
推 kuwai:沒証據的話  故事你怎麼說都可以
推 littlebonnie:ACE現在應該立刻出來說他之前都在開玩笑
→ WarIII:星海人生 太有趣了!!!默默欣賞後續發展
→ haohwang:1百萬抽1成,2百萬抽2成。賺多抽多正常,你不可能抽窮人2成
→ haohwang:抽有錢人1成吧。這算是有保障低收入戶的權益。
→ haohwang:mma說奴隸合約也太過,演藝界會說奴隸合約是抽5成以上,綁
→ haohwang:約5年,他不是簽個一年約而已?抽成還是累進比例沒超過2成
→ ckgegg:這種抽法就累進稅率阿 世界上各大政府都是這樣子抽成 XDDDD
推 kenco:看來很多人不了解累進稅制。
推 suwilliam:政府可以這樣抽~不代表戰隊這樣抽不會讓選手反彈
→ suwilliam:就像仲介的佣金~金額大到某個程度~仲介自然要降點趴數的
推 supdude:抽兩成很少吧...錢少還抽少超佛心