推 spacedunce5:我記得這有傳統翻譯？「一沙一世界，一花一天堂……」 08/25 19:46
→ spacedunce5:also, blake is actually being sarcastic in this 08/25 19:47
→ spacedunce5:extremely long poem 不只四行 08/25 19:47
推 l10nel:傳統版的翻譯已經銘刻心中了，不過新譯的五言絕句也很棒！ 08/26 02:53
推 johanna:為什麼是平聲韻轉仄聲韻？ XD 08/26 03:23
→ johanna:（原po水準實在太高，所以找碴的標準也要相對提高 :P） 08/26 03:23
→ juotung:囧 08/26 22:53
→ johanna:j大不要裝無辜了，我知道你寫詩還會註明韻部的 XDDD 08/26 23:13
推 weeee333:j 開頭長度一樣 ＝ ＝ 超 眼 花 08/26 23:26
推 spacedunce5:樓上+1 08/26 23:35
推 johanna: 樓上+1 08/26 23:50
→ juotung:真的一樣長哎...... 08/27 02:35
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: yentzu (顏子老師) 看板: Translation
標題: Re: [英中] To see a World in a Grain of Sand...
時間: Thu Sep 1 10:38:19 2011
這是為前輩譯者所誤導的解讀法。
兩岸百年來的譯者譯詩有許多都是看一行譯一行，不曉得解讀英詩需得看整句。這首詩連
號稱「大師」的王佐良都用這種錯誤方式去譯。
這詩的基本結構就是 前半句為 （條件句式的）不定詞，後半句則為「祈使」語句，前兩
行跟後兩行的句法是不一樣的，所以意思當然也不「同款」。
有興趣譯詩的年青人最好讀一下我寫的「英詩閱讀欣賞與翻譯示範」，先將受自前輩譯者
的「污染」清除再說。
五言太短，很難盡收此詩之意。若換成七言絕句，則較不難，如下：
君欲一沙窺大千，
或一花中見妙天，
需能隻手握無極，
且須臾間納永延。
有趣的是，這樣的意思好像是在「預言」量子物理論的到來。National Geographic 的探
索宇宙系列節目就時常在說浩瀚宇宙的道理，需得借助在物質最小的量子中去探討。
顏子
from www.yentzu.idv.tw
※ 引述《juotung (想飛)》之銘言：
: To see a World in a Grain of Sand,
: And Heaven in a Wild Flower,
: Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand,
: And Eternity in an hour.
: 一沙存洞天
: 野花亦莊嚴
: 無窮盈一握
: 曾經即永遠
: (William Blake, Auguries of Innocence)
--
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推 juotung:謝謝指教～我消化一下後，再給你回信^^ 09/01 13:56
→ amorch:欲練火眼金睛(窺大千、見妙天)，先練如來神掌(握無極、納永 09/02 18:12
→ amorch:延)。感覺上像是循序漸進的武功秘笈，請問跟innocence有什 09/02 18:17
→ amorch:麼關係？渺小細物、短暫時光，對機心未起的人來說，便是無 09/02 18:24
→ amorch:限永恆。機心一動，童心盡失矣，鑿七竅而渾沌亡。 09/02 18:29
推 spacedunce5:其實真正的高手在樓上 09/02 21:13
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: spacedunce5 (讀不完的書) 看板: Translation
標題: Re: [英中] To see a World in a Grain of Sand...
時間: Thu Sep 1 11:16:46 2011
在尊重各種譯詩的前提之下，個人認為原 PO 解讀有偏。
的確如原 PO 所言，譯詩不能單句譯，但原 PO 考慮的範圍仍然太狹隘。
解讀 Blake 的詩，尤其是有提到 innocence 的詩，
首先要知道的是， Blake 崇尚但並不看好 innocence。
在他那工業革命剛起步的年代，沒人管什麼人權，
小孩與婦女常被壓榨，世界的黑暗常使純真的小孩無辜受害，
這是因為小孩的純真是最珍貴的，但也是最脆弱的。
一反啟蒙時期崇尚 experience 的思想，以 Blake 為濫觴的浪漫時期崇尚 innocence，
於是對於 innocence 的遭受的辛酸苦淚尤其激動。
Innocence 相對於 experience 的特點之一是能以小窺大，
正是這首詩想表達的意象。
Blake 的另一特色，是他並不嚴守文法、標點等現代人的堅持，
於是回到關於第一句的討論：以文法來看的確如原 PO 所言，
但我認為 Blake 此處是一種詠嘆，並不是完整的句子。
故原原 PO 的譯法較為正確。
以上是個人淺見，有興趣進一步討論的話歡迎轉移至 poetry 板。
還有啊，建議你把廣告連結放進簽名檔，比較不易遭到砍文。
最後附上原詩與解析。
解析：http://tinyurl.com/3nk9mdp
原詩出處：http://www.online-literature.com/blake/612/
Auguries of Innocence
To see a world in a grain of sand
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
And eternity in an hour.
A robin redbreast in a cage
Puts all heaven in a rage.
A dove-house filled with doves and pigeons
Shudders hell through all its regions.
A dog starved at his master's gate
Predicts the ruin of the state.
A horse misused upon the road
Calls to heaven for human blood.
Each outcry of the hunted hare
A fibre from the brain does tear.
A skylark wounded in the wing,
A cherubim does cease to sing.
The game-cock clipped and armed for fight
Does the rising sun affright.
Every wolf's and lion's howl
Raises from hell a human soul.
The wild deer wandering here and there
Keeps the human soul from care.
The lamb misused breeds public strife,
And yet forgives the butcher's knife.
The bat that flits at close of eve
Has left the brain that won't believe.
The owl that calls upon the night
Speaks the unbeliever's fright.
He who shall hurt the little wren
Shall never be beloved by men.
He who the ox to wrath has moved
Shall never be by woman loved.
The wanton boy that kills the fly
Shall feel the spider's enmity.
He who torments the chafer's sprite
Weaves a bower in endless night.
The caterpillar on the leaf
Repeats to thee thy mother's grief.
Kill not the moth nor butterfly,
For the Last Judgment draweth nigh.
He who shall train the horse to war
Shall never pass the polar bar.
The beggar's dog and widow's cat,
Feed them, and thou wilt grow fat.
The gnat that sings his summer's song
Poison gets from Slander's tongue.
The poison of the snake and newt
Is the sweat of Envy's foot.
The poison of the honey-bee
Is the artist's jealousy.
The prince's robes and beggar's rags
Are toadstools on the miser's bags.
A truth that's told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent.
It is right it should be so:
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know
Through the world we safely go.
Joy and woe are woven fine,
A clothing for the soul divine.
Under every grief and pine
Runs a joy with silken twine.
The babe is more than swaddling bands,
Throughout all these human lands;
Tools were made and born were hands,
Every farmer understands.
Every tear from every eye
Becomes a babe in eternity;
This is caught by females bright
And returned to its own delight.
The bleat, the bark, bellow, and roar
Are waves that beat on heaven's shore.
The babe that weeps the rod beneath
Writes Revenge! in realms of death.
The beggar's rags fluttering in air
Does to rags the heavens tear.
The soldier armed with sword and gun
Palsied strikes the summer's sun.
The poor man's farthing is worth more
Than all the gold on Afric's shore.
One mite wrung from the labourer's hands
Shall buy and sell the miser's lands,
Or if protected from on high
Does that whole nation sell and buy.
He who mocks the infant's faith
Shall be mocked in age and death.
He who shall teach the child to doubt
The rotting grave shall ne'er get out.
He who respects the infant's faith
Triumphs over hell and death.
The child's toys and the old man's reasons
Are the fruits of the two seasons.
The questioner who sits so sly
Shall never know how to reply.
He who replies to words of doubt
Doth put the light of knowledge out.
The strongest poison ever known
Came from Caesar's laurel crown.
Nought can deform the human race
Like to the armour's iron brace.
When gold and gems adorn the plough
To peaceful arts shall Envy bow.
A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply.
The emmet's inch and eagle's mile
Make lame philosophy to smile.
He who doubts from what he sees
Will ne'er believe, do what you please.
If the sun and moon should doubt,
They'd immediately go out.
To be in a passion you good may do,
But no good if a passion is in you.
The whore and gambler, by the state
Licensed, build that nation's fate.
The harlot's cry from street to street
Shall weave old England's winding sheet.
The winner's shout, the loser's curse,
Dance before dead England's hearse.
Every night and every morn
Some to misery are born.
Every morn and every night
Some are born to sweet delight.
Some are born to sweet delight,
Some are born to endless night.
We are led to believe a lie
When we see not through the eye
Which was born in a night to perish in a night,
When the soul slept in beams of light.
God appears, and God is light
To those poor souls who dwell in night,
But does a human form display
To those who dwell in realms of day.
※ 引述《yentzu (顏子老師)》之銘言：
這是為前輩譯者所誤導的解讀法。
兩岸百年來的譯者譯詩有許多都是看一行譯一行，不曉得解讀英詩需得看整句。這首詩連
號稱「大師」的王佐良都用這種錯誤方式去譯。
這詩的基本結構就是 前半句為 （條件句式的）不定詞，後半句則為「祈使」語句，前兩
行跟後兩行的句法是不一樣的，所以意思當然也不「同款」。
有興趣譯詩的年青人最好讀一下我寫的「英詩閱讀欣賞與翻譯示範」，先將受自前輩譯者
的「污染」清除再說。
五言太短，很難盡收此詩之意。若換成七言絕句，則較不難，如下：
君欲一沙窺大千，
或一花中見妙天，
需能隻手握無極，
且須臾間納永延。
有趣的是，這樣的意思好像是在「預言」量子物理論的到來。National Geographic 的探
索宇宙系列節目就時常在說浩瀚宇宙的道理，需得借助在物質最小的量子中去探討。
顏子
from www.yentzu.idv.tw
※ 引述《juotung (想飛)》之銘言：
: To see a World in a Grain of Sand,
: And Heaven in a Wild Flower,
: Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand,
: And Eternity in an hour.
: 一沙存洞天
: 野花亦莊嚴
: 無窮盈一握
: 曾經即永遠
: (William Blake, Auguries of Innocence)
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 111.248.73.226
--
英語文工作室
http://www.wretch.cc/blog/jsengstudio/
個板
defenestrate
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 140.112.4.195
※ 編輯: spacedunce5 來自: 140.112.4.195 (09/01 11:19)
推 luciferii:仔細一看...原來是凡事必文法的顏子老師='= 09/01 11:30
推 l10nel:我也認為，前四行沒有「為了要...必先...」的意思，前二 09/01 19:00
→ l10nel:用不定詞to，後二用動詞原型，但都在表示祈願。不定詞to的 09/01 19:01
→ l10nel:祈願，如同To boldly go where no man has gone before. 09/01 19:02
→ usread:讀詩絕對要以文法入手,除非是像擺明了不甩文法的Dickinson 09/02 00:23
→ usread:同一句內,不會有兩個主動詞可為證.至於什麼是一句,大家皆知 09/02 00:28
→ spacedunce5:語言本來就該以語序邏輯（文法）為起始點，但讀 Blake 09/02 00:54
→ spacedunce5:3就不用「嚴守」文法 09/02 00:54
→ spacedunce5:或者可以說對文法要更專精以致能寫出論文來 09/02 00:55
→ usread:沒力氣看完全詩,可是一直看了三分之一都很守文法 09/02 01:06
→ usread:指這篇Blake 09/02 01:06
→ spacedunce5:很多他的詩現代版都被沒有要專精的編輯校正過了；回到 09/02 01:08
→ spacedunce5:前四行，按原譯或原原 PO 的新譯，都解成不完整的句子 09/02 01:10
→ spacedunce5:，我便認為是種詠嘆：O! To see a world etc. 09/02 01:10
→ usread:問題在用的是逗號 09/02 01:11
→ usread:然不合文法的詩人畢竟是特例(現代派除外) 09/02 01:12
→ spacedunce5:第三句首省略 to 09/02 01:12
→ usread:竊以為畫虎易畫鬼難,以英文為第二語言的教學宜避免令學生 09/02 01:13
→ usread:以為詩不講文法的印象 09/02 01:14
→ spacedunce5:==================詩絕對講文法啊================== 09/02 01:14
→ usread:先打好基礎,基本動作齊全再進階 poetic license 09/02 01:15
→ spacedunce5:這是我在英詩板的長期堅持！不過解詩時偶爾有 leeway 09/02 01:15
→ usread:但網上此歪風很多哩:什麼英詩不講文法,新聞標題不必合文法 09/02 01:16
→ spacedunce5:順便一問，中文詩講文法嗎？ 09/02 01:18
→ usread:應該合文言文法吧? (亂猜) 09/02 01:19
推 l10nel:我也沒有凡詩便不講文法或讀詩不必懂文法的意思 09/02 02:04
→ spacedunce5:歡迎大家參觀英詩板 poetry～（置入性行銷 09/02 02:05
→ l10nel:s大如果開課我會去上 09/02 02:14
→ usread:多是blank or free verses嗎? 09/02 02:16
→ spacedunce5:what else besides blank and free verse? XD 09/02 08:49
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: yentzu (顏子老師) 看板: Translation
標題: Re: [英中] To see a World in a Grain of Sand...
時間: Thu Sep 1 12:11:05 2011
我看了你提供的連結，還是覺得我的解讀沒錯。
寫詩雖然有所謂的poetic license，但文法仍是基本架構，
溝通的基本格式。砍掉這個格式，則如奧登所云，lead to
misunderstanding which leads to violence.
Blake 這首詩除了第一段以外，是很強烈的抗議詩、把它譯
成像前輩譯者所譯的那樣的「仙風道骨」充滿禪機，
我覺得是有點「表錯情」說。
ptt 我才剛開始學習自己使用（以前有請人幫我貼過文）
，也不知道怎麼設簽名檔。或許你可以教一下我。
Tks.
Yentzu
www.yentzu.idv.tw
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※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 111.248.73.233
→ chingfen:ptt使用方法請見PttNewhand的精華區，會有您要的資料... 09/01 13:51
推 spacedunce5:Blake 以文法（刻意？）鬆散聞名，見： 09/01 14:30
→ spacedunce5:Poppa? 09/01 14:31
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: lifegetter (白浪) 看板: Translation
標題: Re: [英中] To see a World in a Grain of Sand...
時間: Thu Sep 1 23:29:04 2011
※ 引述《spacedunce5 (讀不完的書)》之銘言：
: To see a world in a grain of sand
: And a heaven in a wild flower,
: Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
: And eternity in an hour.
沒受過文學訓練，但是好像冠詞的意義被忽略了。
a world vs. the world; a heaven vs. the heaven.
所以是不是
從粒沙裡面看到一個世界，從朵野花中看到一個天堂。這世界是內蘊於沙中的世界，
而這天堂是內涵於野花裡的天堂。
這世界與天堂不是外界的大千世界也不是玉皇大帝的天界；不一定會有相似之處。
而 infinity 是整個無限的場面，一定要 hold 住。
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◆ From: 210.240.239.151
※ 編輯: lifegetter 來自: 210.240.239.151 (09/01 23:30)
推 spacedunce5:除了heaven習慣無冠詞之外，完全正確！加分～ 09/01 23:55
推 juotung:原文的World、Sand、Heaven、Flower都大寫，這也是個問題 09/02 01:09
推 spacedunce5:名詞大寫是 Blake 一貫的神祕主義手法 09/02 01:11
→ spacedunce5:或說承接舊式英文名詞皆大寫的用法 09/02 01:11
推 juotung:受教了！ 09/02 02:28