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作者: Piaf (...) 看板: clmusic
標題: Re: Fake Haas Edition
時間: Thu Jan 29 10:46:24 2004
※ 引述《Piaf (...)》之銘言：
: Karajan/BPO (EMI, DG)
: Karajan/VPO (DG)
Although von Karajan DID add the cymbal clash together with the
timpani and pauke in the Adagio of Bruckner's 7th, I believe that
he still adopted the Haas Edition of this symphony, since von
Karajan did not apply the tempo alternations in the last movement.
In addition to the percussion part in the Adagio, another discrepancy
between the Haas Ed. and the Nowak Ed. is the tempi instruction in the
first and the last movement, especially the last mvt. For example,
in the 4th movement in the Nowak Ed., it is marked "ritard" in bar 7
and in bar 9 it's marked "a tempo." and this kind of tempi alternation
is not seen in Haas Ed. It's believed that thess tempi instructions are
suggested by J. Shalk. (I recommend those who are interested in this
history to read some references. In my opinion the best one is the preface
of the Nowak Edition, by Professor Nowak himself.)
Dr. Robert Simpson did not quite agree the tempi indication here. In his
book "The Essence of Bruckner" (The Camelot Press Ltd, 1967(1st Ed), 1977
(2nd Ed)), he said that the verbal instruction by Bruckner was possibly
under the "daily-chat" situation:
Schalk: You don't want absolutely rigid tempi, do you?
Bruckner: No, of course not.
Schalk: Right! Leave it to us.
Dr. Simpson also quoted another pianist's words (Friedrich Wuhrer), who
once met an old musician who was at present on the occation of the two
piano version of the 7th symphony, performed by Schalk and Loewe, with
Bruckner at present. That old musician recalled that actually Bruckner
was agitated about the duo performance: "What are they doing? That's
not my symphony!" Of course this is only a story, maybe less convincing
than the evidence of Bruckner's letters to Nikisch. However Dr. Simpson
had a point here.
For those who want to compare the tempo differences in the 4th mvt, I
recommend Jochum's Dresden version (Nowak, EMI) and Wand's Berliner
version (Haas, BMG/RCA).
--
Piaf @ PTT; klem/Dutchman elsewhere.
※ 編輯: Piaf 來自: 204.39.227.99 (01/29 10:54)
→ Fassbaender:再推一下！！ 推 218.168.28.194 01/29
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作者: Piaf (...) 看板: clmusic
標題: Re: Fake Haas Edition
時間: Sat Jan 31 00:43:04 2004
※ 引述《Piaf (...)》之銘言：
: Schalk: You don't want absolutely rigid tempi, do you?
: Bruckner: No, of course not.
: Schalk: Right! Leave it to us.
The tempi indication issue is still debated in the past 60 years, and
of course has not come to a conclusion yet. Let's see what the Bruckner
scholars said on this problem.
Dr. Deryk Cooke, the most famous advocate of the Haas Edition, thought
that the tempi indication, such as the scattered "ritard-a tempo" pairs,
are particular harmful since thry destroy the natural flow of the music.
("The Bruckner Problem Simplified", The Muisical Newsletter Inc, NY, 1975)
Dr. Cooke regarded this tempi indications as simply Nikisch's "conductor's
markings", and absolutely have no place in Bruckner's score.
On the contrary, Dr. william Carragan said that the ritards in the finale
are authentic, and it's not optional. (In his opinion, the cymbal clash
in the Adagio is optional, just a matter of taste.) ("The Bruckner Versions,
Once More", American Record Guide, March 1995)
One major discrepancy between Dr. Haas and Dr. Nowak, is that Dr. Haas
wanted only one version for each symphony so he combined materials from
different versions; however Dr. Nowak thought that the different revisions
should be published separately. For example, the eighth symphony, we have
1887 Nowak version, and the 1890 Nowak version, but only one 1887-1890
Haas Edition.
Different scholars have different comments on Bruckner's personal character
too. Dr. Carragan thought that Bruckner has a radical(!) and forward-looking
view of what symphonic music should be, while Dr. Cooke said that Bruckner
did not possessed the "normal" self-confidence of the great composer.
In my observation, it seems that the elder scholars, such as Dr. Cooke,
Dr. Simpson, and Dr. Doernberg are more fond/pro the Haas Edition, while
the younger scholar's are more likely in favor of the Nowak Edition,
such as Dr. Carraga, and Dr. Korstvedt. What's funny is that, these
Brucknerian are either from UK or from US.
--
Piaf @ PTT; klem/Dutchman elsewhere.
--
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作者: Piaf (...) 看板: clmusic
標題: Re: Fake Haas Edition
時間: Sat Feb 7 02:29:56 2004
※ 引述《Piaf (...)》之銘言：
: On the contrary, Dr. william Carragan said that the ritards in the finale
: are authentic, and it's not optional. (In his opinion, the cymbal clash
: in the Adagio is optional, just a matter of taste.) ("The Bruckner Versions,
: Once More", American Record Guide, March 1995)
Let's turn our attention to the cymbal clash. In Buckner's 8th symphony
(1890 version), there is one cymbal clash in the climax in the Adagio.
However, back to the first version in 1887, there are SIX cymbal clashs
in the adagio climax (two pairs of three).
Georg Tintner, a great Brucknerian, comments on these cymbal clashes:
"Conductors can easily dismiss the cymbal clash in the adagio of the 7th
synphony, since it's not initially in Bruckner's manuscript. But how can
those poor conductors deal with these 6 clashes? Bruckner DID write them
down..."
There is an article about the 1887/1890 Bruckner 8th in Ben Korstvedt's
book. Worth reading.I agree with Fassbaender: this book is really a good
one, although the reviews in amazon.com are pretty terrible. The full score
of the 1887 version can be achieved in Schott-Eulenberg Miniature Scores
edition (USD 25).
Also, don't miss the preface by Professor Nowak (1972) in the 8th symphony.
--
Piaf @ PTT; klem/Dutchman elsewhere.
※ 編輯: Piaf 來自: 141.212.126.245 (02/07 02:35)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: Piaf (...) 看板: clmusic
標題: Re: Fake Haas Edition
時間: Sun Feb 8 11:18:01 2004
※ 引述《Piaf (...)》之銘言：
: There is an article about the 1887/1890 Bruckner 8th in Ben Korstvedt's
: book. Worth reading.I agree with Fassbaender: this book is really a good
: one, although the reviews in amazon.com are pretty terrible. The full score
: of the 1887 version can be achieved in Schott-Eulenberg Miniature Scores
: edition (USD 25).
I must clarify my review of Prof. Korstvedt's book. First, it's a good book
for those who are interested in the background of this master piece
(Bruckner's 8th), since Prof. Korstvedt followed a rigorous method
to investigate the problems behind this symphony. In this book readers
can find several tabulated data, plenty references, and clear argument.
However, I am not completely convinced by Prof. Korstvedt's argument
about the Haas edition. It is widely known that Haas's Edition is based
on the 1890 manuscript, inserted some material by 1887 version. But,
(and this is a BIG BUT), Prof. Korstvedt used some exaggerate terms when
describing this which is terribly misleading. For example, he wrote:
"his edition does not include any scholarly apparatus nor does the
introduction adequately explain this edtorial intervention."
He also applied some patriotic terms to strengthen his argument against
Haas edition, and this should not have happened in an academic article.
He tends to link Prof. Robert Haas to the Nazi Party, and National
Socialism, then went to conclude ...what so ever, and finally he implied
that the Haas edition should be forbidden. I cannot agree this at all.
Most people would agree Haas edition still has its meaning in the studies
of Bruckner's music.
(The American people are more patriotic then you can imagine. You can
almost see the TV programs blameing on those who they regard as
"Center of EVIL", "TYRANT", and "NOTORIOUS BARBARIANS" every day.
Terrible!)
Therefore, when you are reading this book, don't forget to read Deryck
Cooke and Robert Simpson's book, to get a fair balance on the Haas/Nowak
issue.
I know I went too far from the title that I initially set. Maybe I can
end this series of article by correctting another mis-labeled recording.
Karl Boehm/VPO/Bruckner Symphony no. 8 (1977, DG Gallery Series)
Actually it's Nowak Edition, not Haas edition as printed on the back
cover.
--
Piaf @ PTT; klem/Dutchman elsewhere.
※ 編輯: Piaf 來自: 204.39.226.207 (02/08 11:31)
※ 編輯: Piaf 來自: 204.39.227.67 (02/08 12:31)