Re: 哈薩克人和吉爾吉斯人的名稱問題

[MRZ (臺大歷史系教授......Orz)]

※ 引述《bxdfhbh (bxdfhbh)》之銘言：
: 中俄《尼布楚條約》、中英《南京條約》中，「中國」一詞完全對應了清政府所統治
: 的這個國家，而不是什麼中原或尊稱的「我國」。

先看"南京條約"的中文原文:

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茲因大清大皇帝，大英君主，欲以近來之不和之端解釋，息止肇釁，為此議定設立永久和
約。是以大清大皇帝特派欽差便宜行事大臣太子少保鎮守廣東廣州將軍宗室耆英，頭品頂
戴花翎前閣督部堂乍浦副都統紅帶子伊裡布；大英伊耳蘭等國君主特派全權公使大臣英國
所屬印度等處三等將軍世襲男爵璞鼎查；公同各將所奉之上諭便宜行事及敕賜全權之命互
相較閱，俱屬善當，即便議擬各條，陳列於左：

一、嗣後大清大皇帝、大英國君主永存平和，所屬華英人民彼此友睦，各住他國者必受該
國保佑身家全安。

二、自今以後，大皇帝恩准英國人民帶同所屬家眷，寄居大清沿海之廣州、福州、廈門、
寧波、上海等五處港口，貿易通商無礙；且大英國君主派設領事、管事等官住該五處城邑
，專理商賈事宜，與各該地方官公文往來；令英人按照下條開敘之列，清楚交納貨稅、鈔
餉等費。

三、因大英商船遠路涉洋，往往有損壞須修補者，自應給予沿海一處，以便修船及存守所
用物料。今大皇帝準將香港一島給予大英國君主暨嗣後世襲主位者常遠據守主掌，任便立
法治理。

四、因大清欽差大憲等於道光十九年二月間經將大英國領事官及民人等強留粵省，嚇以死
罪，索出鴉片以為贖命，今大皇帝准以洋銀六百萬員償補原價。

五、凡大英商民在粵貿易，向例全歸額設行商，亦稱公行者承辦，今大皇帝准以嗣後不必
仍照向例，乃凡有英商等赴各該口貿易者，勿論與何商交易，均聽其便；且向例額設行商
等內有累欠英商甚多無措清還者，今酌定洋銀三百萬員，作為商欠之數，准明由中國官為
償還。

六、因大清欽命大臣等向大英官民人等不公強辦，致須撥發軍士討求伸理，今酌定水陸軍
費洋銀一千二百萬員，大皇帝准為償補，惟自道光二十一年六月十五日以後，英國因贖各
城收過銀兩之數，大英全權公使大臣為君主准可，按數扣除。

七、以上三條酌定銀數共二千一百萬員應如何分期交清開列於左：

此時交銀六百萬員；
癸卯年六月間交銀三百萬員，十二月間交銀三百萬員，共銀六百萬員；
甲辰年六月間交銀二百五十萬員，十二月間交銀二百五十萬員，共銀五百萬員；
乙巳年六月間交銀二百萬員，十二月間交銀二百萬員，共銀四百萬員；
自壬寅年起至乙巳年止，四年共交銀二千一百萬員。
倘有按期未能交足之數，則酌定每年每百員加息五員。

八、凡系大英國人，無論本國、屬國軍民等，今在中國所管轄各地方被禁者，大清大皇帝
准即釋放。

九、凡系中國人，前在英人所據之邑居住者，或與英人有來往者，或有跟隨及侍候英國官
人者，均由大皇帝俯降禦旨，譽錄天下，恩准全然免罪；且凡系中國人，為英國事被拿監
禁受難者，亦加恩釋放。

十、前第二條內言明開關俾英國商民居住通商之廣州等五處，應納進口、出口貨稅、餉費
，均宜秉公議定則例，由部頒發曉示，以便英商按例交納；今又議定，英國貨物自在某港
按例納稅後，即准由中國商人遍運天下，而路所經過稅關不得加重稅例，只可按估價則例
若干，每兩加稅不過分。

十一、議定英國住中國之總管大員，與大清大臣無論京內、京外者，有文書來往，用照會
字樣；英國屬員，用申陳字樣；大臣批覆用劄行字樣；兩國屬員往來，必當平行照會。若
兩國商賈上達官憲，不在議內，仍用稟明字樣為著。

十二、俟奉大清大皇帝允准和約各條施行，並以此時准交之六百萬員交清，大英水陸軍士
當即退出江寧、京口等處江面，並不再行攔阻中國各省商賈貿易。至鎮海之招寶山，亦將
退讓。惟有定海縣之舟山海島、廈門廳之古浪嶼小島，仍歸英兵暫為駐守；迨及所議洋銀
全數交清，而前議各海口均已開闢俾英人通商後，即將駐守二處軍士退出，不復佔據。

十三、以上各條均關議和要約，應候大臣等分別奏明大清大皇帝、大英君主各用朱、親筆
批准後，即速行相交，俾兩國分執一冊，以昭信守；惟兩國相離遙遠，不得一旦而到，是
以另繕二冊，先由大清欽差便宜行事大臣等、大英欽奉全權公使大臣各為君上定事，蓋用
關防印信，各執一冊為據，俾即日按照和約開載之條，施行妥辦無礙矣。要至和約者。

道光二十二年七月二十四日即英國記年之
一千八百四十二年八月二十九日由江寧省會行
大英君主汗華麗船上鈐關防

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然後看看英文的"南京條約"內容:

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HER MAJESTY the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and
His Majesty the Emperor of China, being desirous of putting an end to the
misunderstandings and consequent hostilities which have arisen between the
two countries, have resolved to conclude a Treaty for that purpose, and have
therefore named as their Plenipotentiaries, that is to say: Her Majesty the
Queen of Great Britain and Ireland, HENRY POTTINGER, Bart., a Major General
in the Service of the East India Company, etc., etc.; And His Imperial
Majesty the Emperor of China, the High Commissioners KEYING, a Member of the
Imperial House, a Guardian of the Crown Prince and General of the Garrison of
Canton; and ELEPOO, of Imperial Kindred, graciously permitted to wear the
insignia of the first rank, and the distinction of Peacock's feather, lately
Minister and Governor General etc., and now Lieutenant-General Commanding at
Chapoo: Who, after having communicated to each other their respective Full
Powers, and found them to be in good and due form, have agreed upon and
concluded the following [selected] Articles:

Article I.

There shall henceforward be peace and friendship between Her Majesty the
Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and His Majesty the
Emperor of China, and between their respective subjects, who shall enjoy full
security and protection for their persons and property within the dominions
of the other.

Article II.

His Majesty the Emperor of China agrees, that British subjects, with their
families and establishments, shall be allowed to reside, for the purposes of
carrying on their mercantile pursuits, without molestation or restraint, at
the cities and towns of Canton, Amoy, Foochowfoo, Ningpo, and Shanghai; and
Her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain, &c., will appoint Superintendents, or
Consular officers, to reside at each of the above-named cities or towns, to
be the medium of communication between the Chinese authorities and the said
merchants, and to see that the just duties and other dues of the Chinese
Government, as hereafter provided for, are duly discharged by Her Britannic
Majesty's subjects.

Article III.

It being obviously necessary and desirable that British subjects should have
some port whereat they may [maintain] and refit their ships when required,
and keep stores for that purpose, His Majesty the Emperor of China cedes to
Her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain, &c., the Island of Hong-Kong, to be
possessed in perpetuity by Her Britannic Majesty, her heirs and successors,
and to be governed by such laws and regulations as Her Majesty the Queen of
Great Britain, &c., shall see fit to direct.

Article IV.

The Emperor of China agrees to pay the sum of Six Millions of dollars, as the
value of the opium which was delivered up at Canton in the month of March,
1839, as a ransom for the lives of Her Britannic Majesty's Superintendent and
subjects, who had been imprisoned and threatened with death by the Chinese
High Officers

Article V.

The Government of China having compelled the British merchants trading at
Canton to deal exclusively with certain Chinese merchants, called Hong
merchants (or Cohong), who had been licensed by the Chinese Government for
that purpose, the Emperor of China agrees to abolish that practice in future
at all ports where British merchants may reside, and to permit them to carry
on their mercantile transactions with whatever persons they please; and His
Imperial Majesty further agrees to pay to the British Government the sum of
Three Millions of dollars, on account of debts due to British subjects by
some of the said Hong merchants (or Cohong), who have become insolvent, and
who owe very large sums of money to subjects of Her Britannic Majesty.
Article VI.

The Government of Her Britannic Majesty having been obliged to send out an
expedition to demand and obtain redress for the violent and unjust
proceedings of the Chinese High Authorities towards Her Britannic Majesty's
officer and subjects, the Emperor of China agrees to pay the sum of Twelve
Millions of dollars, on account of the expenses incurred; and Her Britannic
Majesty's Plenipotentiary voluntarily agrees, on behalf of Her Majesty, to
deduct from the said amount of Twelve Millions of dollars, any sums which may
have been received by Her Majesty's combined forces, as ransom for cities and
towns in China, subsequent to the 1st day of August, 1841.

Article VII.

It is agreed, that the total amount of Twenty-One Millions of dollars,
described in the three preceding Articles, shall be paid as follows:-

Six Millions immediately.

Six Millions in 1843. That is:- Three Millions on or before the 30th of the
month of June, and 3,000,000 on or before the 31st of December.

Five Millions in 1844. That is:- Two Millions and a half on or before the
30th of June, and 2,500,000 on or before the 31st of December.

Four Millions in 1845. That is:- Two Millions on or before the 30th of June,
and Two Millions on or before the 31st of December; and it is further
stipulated, that Interest, at the rate of 5 per cent per annum, shall be paid
by the Government of China on any portion of the above sums that are not
punctually discharged at the periods fixed.

Article VIII.

The Emperor of China agrees to release, unconditionally, all subjects of Her
Britannic Majesty (whether Natives of Europe or India), who may be in
confinement at this moment in any part of the Chinese empire.

Article IX.

The Emperor of China agrees to publish and promulgate, under his Imperial
sign manual and seal, a full and entire amnesty and act of indemnity to all
subjects of China, on account of their having resided under, or having had
dealings and intercourse with, or having entered the service of Her Britannic
Majesty, or of Her Majesty's officers; and His Imperial Majesty further
engages to release all Chinese subjects who may be at this moment in
confinement for similar reasons.

Article X.

His Majesty the Emperor of China agrees to establish at all the ports which
are, by the 2nd Article of this Treaty, to be thrown open for the resort of
British merchants, a fair and regular tariff of export and import customs and
other dues, which tariff shall be publicly notified and promulgated for
general information; and the Emperor further engages, that when British
merchandise shall have once paid at any of the said ports the regulated
customs and dues, agreeable to the tariff to be hereafter fixed, such
merchandise may be conveyed by Chinese merchants to any province or city in
the interior of the Empire of China, on paying a further amount as transit
duties, which shall not exceed [see Declaration respecting Transit Duties
below] on the tariff value of such goods.

Article XI.

It is agreed that Her Britannic Majesty's Chief High Officer in China shall
correspond with the Chinese High Officers, both at the Capital and in the
Provinces, under the term "Communication" 照會. The Subordinate British
Officers and Chinese High Officers in the Provinces under the terms
"Statement" 申陳 on the part of the former, and on the part of the latter
"Declaration" 劄行, and the Subordinates of both Countries on a footing of
perfect equality. Merchants and others not holding official situations and,
therefore, not included in the above, on both sides, to use the term
"Representation" 稟明 in all Papers addressed to, or intended for the notice
of the respective Governments.

Article XII.

On the assent of the Emperor of China to this Treaty being received, and the
discharge of the first instalment of money, Her Britannic Majesty's forces
will retire from Nanking and the Grand Canal, and will no longer molest or
stop the trade of China. The military post at Chinhai will also be withdrawn,
but the Islands of Koolangsoo, and that of Chusan, will continue to be held
by Her Majesty's forces until the money payments, and the arrangements for
opening the ports to British merchants, be completed.

Article XIII.

The ratification of this Treaty by Her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain,
&c., and His Majesty the Emperor of China, shall be exchanged as soon as the
great distance which separates England from China will admit; but in the
meantime, counterpart copies of it, signed and sealed by
the.Plenipotentiaries on behalf of their respective Sovereigns, shall be
mutually delivered, and all its provisions and arrangements shall take effect.

Done at Nanking, and signed and sealed by the Plenipotentiaries on board Her
Britannic Majesty's ship Cornwallis, this 29th day of August, 1842,
corresponding with the Chinese date, twenty-fourth day of the seventh month
in the twenty-second Year of TAOU KWANG.
(L.S.) HENRY POTTINGER.
[SIGNATURES OF THE THREE CHINESE PLENIPOTENTIARIES]

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一來做個比對,而來若就語文邏輯與用法來比照的話,中英文是截然不同的.

還有,要看就要看全面,不能只挑一兩句話就在上面做文章.

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                         ◤     ◥   ◢       ◣                              
        傑米，炸掉它吧。  ⊙▁⊙─    ─⊙▂⊙   碰到問題，用C4就對了！       
                      ╰  ∕皿﹨        ◥皿◤  ╯                            
                          ◥█◤◢    ◥  ︶◤                                
            Adam Savage ◤  ︶    ◥◤  ﹨▼∕◥ Jamie Hyneman                
 ＭＹＴＨＢＵＳＴＥＲＳ  ◥             ◤＼◥                    by dajidali 

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※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 114.42.201.226
※ 編輯: MRZ             來自: 114.42.201.226       (06/08 13:36)
→ bxdfhbh:看了一下，中國對應的都是China，大清也用China，這說明中
→ bxdfhbh:國一詞并非鄙視對方，表示的是和大清一樣的意思。
推 hahano:M大專業
推 cruise:所以英國也是Britain跟England共用，只是Britain比較多
→ cruise:中文沒人講不列顛，反而多講英格蘭...
推 cruise:大清:中國 = 11:8，還要扣掉做名詞用的『中國人』3處
推 cruise:講錯，11:7，扣掉把中國二字當形容詞的『中國』人、商人
→ cruise:剩下11:4
→ cruise:所以對老外來說，管你大清或中國，都用China，對老中來說
→ cruise:管你Britain或England，通通都稱英國
→ cruise:以前England的概念變成Britain，跟大清變成中國
→ cruise:某種意義上來說很相似的
推 gfdsa:我回這篇了，說你辯證能力弱已經是客氣了，根本沒有科學方法
→ gfdsa:之前在DH板的時候，你連國族、民族和族群的概念都沆瀣不清
→ gfdsa:cruise對你的盲點提出了一針見血的解答
推 Zsanou:推這篇,M大專業,要吵南京條約把原文拿出來再說....