[討論] 全面啟動 之 化學師講座 (有雷)

[Raist (F.Muslera我愛你~)]

前面有人找出這篇文章--

Inception’s Dileep Rao Answers All Your Questions About Inception
URL: http://0rz.tw/coRdu

這裡將文章內容貼上來 並大概說明一下
[Q是記者;問話的人 / A是Rao;飾演化學師 / 褐黃色是我的解釋
 亮白色或是暗水藍色是我想強調的句子 ]

又, 訪談中稱謂一直切換 一下用角色名稱 一下用演員名稱 很混亂
所以我一律用角色名稱代替

前言:
Over the weekend, Christopher Nolan's mind-bending Inception extracted
$60.4 million from moviegoers, leaving many in a limbolike state of confusion.
Where to turn for answers? Today, Vulture had the pleasure of speaking with
Dileep Rao, who plays Yusuf the chemist in the film (he was also in Avatar,
which makes him, in terms of box-office bankability, the Indian Will Smith).
Rao helpfully revealed everything he knows — and thinks he knows — about
Inception's mechanics. SPOILERS ahead, obviously.

上色這句話很重要 這句話表示 這篇文章的內容 也就是化學師對劇情的理解/分析
並不一定等於官方設定
如果常看訪談的話 可以知道演員對自己詮釋的角色以及劇情 都有自己的"解讀"
很多導演對於演員的詮釋 是採取開放的態度 (尤其是好的導演)
只要不偏離主軸太遠 不誤導觀眾 不影響演技 是可以容許一些認知上的誤差的

Let's get the easy stuff out of the way first. 

================================Q1. 夢的規則==================================

Q1: Can you go over the rules of dreaming?

A1. When you dream normally, you can use a drug to share the dream with other
people. You can enter another person's dream. It's just the dream-sharing drug,
so if you die in that dream, you just wake up — no problem. It's frightening
for a second, but up you come.
在一般的情況下, 要進入或是分享他人的夢境, 就是用那公事包中的儀器同時施打藥物
這裡有說在這種情況下死掉的話, 就會直接醒來

The problem arises when you want to go deeper.
想要夢得更沉(也就是不容易叫醒) 就要有另外的配套措施

To go deeper, we have to use a much stronger version of the drug, one that my
character customizes, that is combined with a very powerful sedative.
It's like weights to keep you under when you are scuba diving. 
這比喻還滿妙的 用加強版藥劑 就類似潛水時在身上荷重 讓你更方便潛入更深的海域
這招楊過在絕情谷底有用過 XD

But in this situation, if you die in the dream, you go deeper and deeper until
you hit limbo.
這裡有說明 使用威力加強版的藥劑時若死在夢中, 則會陷入渾沌狀態

Limbo is unconstructed dream space, unless one of the dreamers has been there
— in our movie's case, someone has. And while you're in limbo, your brain can
be destroyed. Like, you would be in a coma, or you could just leave your mind
behind.
這裡有提到, 李奧也在電影中說過, 若陷入渾沌狀態, 可能陷入昏迷或迷失自我
即使醒來也可能失憶(brain damage)

Also, you can be in limbo for years and years, subjective limbo time, but in
reality only moments have passed.

Yes, a lifetime can go by, because each layer is ten times dilated by going
into a dream within a dream within a dream. Um, within a dream.
層次越多的夢中夢, 越能將現實與夢境的時間差距拉大

Digging a little deeper into the story now,

============================Q2. 每個階段的造夢者==============================

Q2: can you walk me through whose dream is whose?

A2. Okay.

第0層 -- 現實 (在飛機上的頭等艙)
So first there's reality. We get on the plane. We go to sleep.
演化學師的Rao認為這是現實。由此可知結局應該也要是現實

第1層 -- 化學師的夢 (van/橋上)
Then we're in my dream, Yusuf's dream.
Because my pee urge causes it to rain. That's how I see it.
The architecture is Ariadne's design, but it's my dream.
其實他也只是藉由-因為他有迫切的尿意導致夢中下雨, 來推導出自己是造夢者的結論

第2層 -- Arthur的夢 (飯店)
Then we drop down a level and go to the bar, to the hotel. I think we're in
Arthur's dream at that point.

第3層 -- Fischer的夢 (碉堡)
Then — this is where it gets mind-bending — we drop down into Fischer's
dream, even though he thinks they're going to Browning's dream.
這裡開始變得複雜, 這個夢其實是Fischer的夢, 但主角卻讓F以為他是跟大家一起進入
他乾爹的夢(不是管家喔...看到前面居然有人說Browning是管家...Orz)

There seems to be a rule of thumb, then, that
whoever "sticks around" in a level, that person had to be the dreamer, right?
根據經驗法則 我們可以導出個潛規則--當一個人留在某層負責"引渡"前往下一層的人
那麼這個人就是這層的造夢者

It's why you're stuck driving the van and Arthur chills out in
the hotel.

I think that's a great signifier and it makes the most sense,
because how the hell would it continue on that level if the person who was
dreaming took off?
Rao同意這規則, 並表示--如果連這層的造夢者都到下一層去了, 那這層會變怎樣?

但是下面問題來了:
But that made me think the third level, the snow fort, was Eames's dream.
因為Eames似乎是第三層唯一居中協調 處理一切的人

Except in the hotel room, Ariadne asks whose subconscious we're going into,
and Cobb answers, "Fischer's."

You're right, it has to be Fischer's, because that's the level where
they're planning to do the inception. That also means that in the hotel room,
when Browning is talking to Fischer, we're actually watching —

— an internal debate going on in Fischer's mind. He's filling Arthur's dream
with his subconscious. And then one level down, in the snow of his own mind,
 he drops down to limbo when he dies, which means your rule of thumb isn't quite
right. Because Mal shoots him, which means Cobb's own subconscious has taken
Fischer to limbo.
在此, 化學師的解讀是--Fischer在第三層死了 進入渾沌 因此第四層應該要解釋為limbo
而且由於是Cobb的潛意識中的Mal將Fischer射殺的, 所以後來在第四層 Cobb才向Mal要人
如果只是單純的第四層 而第四層的造夢者是Cobb的話 他不用跟任何人要人
應該自己就知道Fischer的所在 但因為他是在渾沌狀態 因此無法自由控制夢境(?)
接下來的訪談更是基於這個前提下繼續討論的


=======================Q3. Cobb與女大生如何進入混沌狀態?=====================

So how do Cobb and Ariadne get to limbo?

A3.They open up a suitcase and they lie down on the floor, and go
under. It's a limbo party now — who can go lower? — because Saito is on his
way down there soon, too.
他們兩個是使用夢境分享機進入混沌狀態的, 而齊藤則是因為死掉而陷入

Q3-1. 混沌狀態是否為共享的創造出來的空間
So if it's a limbo party,
it seems like limbo is a shared creative space, in a sense?

A3-1. Right. Limbo is like unconstructed dream space. Nothing exists, except
whatever has been constructed previously in the subconscious by any of the
dreamers in the dream. Among our characters, Cobb is the only one who's been
there. 所以我們在第四層看到的是Cobb跟Mal的構築



========Q4.在混沌狀態中終於見面的兩個人-齊藤跟Cobb-為何年紀差異這麼大?========

Q4. I think a lot of people are confused by the ending/beginning where Saito
is an old man in limbo, but Leo is still super handsome. XD

A4. Well, two ideas.
One: Cobb is aged, too, but he's been down there less time and from a younger
age. Cobb is in his forties and Saito in the eighties by the time they meet.

Q4-1. Is there anything to the idea that Cobb knows he's in limbo?

A4-1. Well, that's option two: He knows where he is, so he can keep track a bit
better of where he is, who he is.
因為他知道自己是在渾沌狀態, 所以可以"稍微"控制夢的內容, 包括他的外貌

Q4-2. Ariadne warns him something along those lines just before she leaves him
in limbo ...

A4-2. But Leo also starts out younger. In fact, he looks even younger in real
life than as Cobb in the film. He looks so young!
由於Saito還是比較早出發前往Limbo, 加上時間拉長 因為Saito是受槍傷死在第一層
(鏡頭一直take他左胸的槍傷 似乎是在告訴我們他停止流血有一陣子了 因為血跡沒擴大
所以其實他比Cobb溺水而死還要早上許多
但這樣解釋 會影響到第四層是limbo的論點! 除非解釋為Cobb進入limbo兩次 = =

再加上三層的時間倍數差距 所以才跟Cobb年紀差這麼多
而且 現實生活中的李奧比電影裡的Cobb看起來更年輕! XD

Q5.I kept thinking about how much he looks like Bizarro Chris Nolan.
A5.He does! It's weird.
這裡是說李奧看起來很像Bizarro Chris Nolan, 我不懂Bizarro的意思 @"@
只知道是一個漫畫人物 但在此應該不是這個意思 是說Cobb是Nolan在電影裡的自況???

Q5-1. And if movies are the director's dream, that means Leo as Nolan is ...
A5-1. Stop.
這一句可以呼應前面那句 但越扯越遠了 所以Rao叫他不要再講了 XD








============================Q6. 圖騰如何運作===============================

Q6. Okay, well, can you explain how totems work?

A6.The behavior of the object is subject to rules it follows in real life,
but your having made it in secret means that it will tell you if you're in
reality.
圖騰的呈現方式受限於現實中的定律/法則
前面已有很多解釋了 像是陀螺在現實生活中不會一直轉動, 灌鉛骰子無法擲出其它點數

Like you in your dream, have it behave in an unreal way. So the top will keep
spinning forever if Cobb is in a dream. He chose the top because it was Mal's.
所以在夢中讓陀螺轉個不停, 就可以知道這是夢境, 因為現實生活中這不可能
前面有人說 陀螺是Mal的而不是Cobb的圖騰 但是Cobb就把它拿來用了阿
沒人規定不能接手別人的圖騰阿 XD

One, it's a deep symbolic connection to her, and the idea he planted in her on
purpose that she brought back up into reality.
Cobb使用Mal圖騰的第一個理由是: 這陀螺可以聯繫Mal在他心中的形象
而且有糾纏不清 錯綜複雜的糾葛 XD

And two, he knows it represents getting trapped in non-reality so it's an
extra-strong totem. (That second part is my speculation.)
至於第二個理由, 則純粹是Rao的推測, 由於當初Mal不想離開limbo, 所以把這圖騰封印住
這動作讓這圖騰更具代表性, 成為威力加強版的圖騰

Oh good, because I want to get really speculative later. But first,


===================Q7.為何使用加強版藥劑, 就一定要上下層同步kick?=============


as the chemist who invented the sedative,
why is it important to synchronize the kicks, the triggers to wake you up?

A7. Well here's the key: You want to wake all the way up,
because if you don't, you can't go back up to rekick and wake yourself up.
The sedative leaves inner-ear function unimpaired, so you have to
feel a jolt in the level you're asleep in to wake from the level below.
由於藥效特性, 要從下一層跳回上一層, 就必須讓上一層的自己"墜落/失去平衡"

If the synchronized kick fails, you would only wake up where it reached you.
It's like a concussive wave. It has to reach all the way down, or else you have
to get lucky for some other kick, or for someone who's awake to wake the other
person up. So, I transmit a kick down to Arthur, he transmits it below,
and so on.
要從最深層醒到第一層, 每層的kick就像是連鎖效應, 環環相扣

Q7-1. Hence at the top level, the van has the fail-safe kick of falling
and hitting the water?
第一層的van產生的kick有除錯機制, 第一次kick失敗沒關係, 還有第二次

A7-1. Right. And above that, in reality, the drug is fed by a machine that turns
off. It has a timer on it and the sedative has to stop flowing.
That's the one that's real.

Q7-2. So at the end when they're sitting on the riverbank in Yusuf's dream,
it's no big deal because they're not going to have to sit around too long ...

A7-2. Sure, but if you miss a kick and you're down below, you won't wake up.
You'll disappear into that level, or go to limbo, because you can't wake up.
Or you can and your mind might not come back because subjectively you've been
there too long. That's the danger.



===================Q8.對於Cobb與Mal當初陷入limbo狀態的看法=================

Q8. Any thoughts on how Cobb and Mal ended up in limbo way back when?

A8. Personal experimentation, to test the limits of the art, and I think
that's kind of the interesting and haunting thing about it, is that they
stretched their full limits and found a material weakness in the process,
當初Cobb跟Mal是為了探索這種dream-share行為的極限, 才越陷越深

and his way of fixing it ended up snapping back up from the benthic depths with
her, into reality, and had her utterly flummoxed. She lost her mind, her touch
with reality, and she did the unthinkable. Because, remember, she's been
dealing with the passage of levels the whole time, so reality just felt like
another, since she spent her whole life down there with Cobb. They grew old
together.
在此 Rao是認為Cobb是為了要修正造夢過程中產生的瑕疵
才發生之後讓Mal混淆分不清現實與夢境的結果 但我並不認同這說法 ~"~

I used to have this dream, or rather, this idea, that I'd just wake up at some
point and I would be 4 years old again. And this life was just one trajectory
my life could have gone on. But that's the thing that Mal got messed up by,
because she lived so long on the lower level. Like, for me, how could waking up
as a 4-year-old seem real — jibe with what I've experienced as real?
How do you believe in it, right?
這裡的說法有點像莊周夢蝶的概念 所以Mal已經達到了莊子的境界!! XD


================================Q9. 關於結局=================================

So what about the final shot, when the top seems like it could keep spinning
before we cut to black. Let's call it the n-1 theory, where the whole film is
all a dream, even the "reality" level. In other words, every level is one lower
than we think it is.
第一個可能: 從頭到尾都是Cobb的一場夢; 所以我們前面討論的層次都還要再加上一層

Yeah. I don't think the "It's all a dream" theory makes much sense to me,
because where is "the real" Cobb? We never seen. We never see reality. We have
no idea who this man is, what his circumstances are.
Rao不同意這個結局, 因為這結局並不能解釋一切

To me, there's really only two paths:

1. Either it's a wobbling top, which it does sound like at the end,
and it's real;
第一個結局--最後陀螺搖搖晃晃, 要倒要倒的, 所以是現實

2. or the whole thing, regardless of totems, moments, girls, children, people,
machines, the whole thing — it's all some dream. And that's more philosophy.
I think the film does this wonderful exploration of the entire idea to the
nth degree. It feels so full. Because of that, there's so many weird bits that
seem to warp our sense of the real and unreal.
第二種結局--一切都是場夢。哲學論。

=====================Q10. Cobb在與Eames會面的那場追逐戲=====================

I felt a very dreamlike feeling when Cobb is being chased by the Cobol guys and
Saito shows up to save him. I mean, squeezing through the wall when they're
coming for him, I've had so many nightmares like that.
記者認為這橋段像是一場夢境, 因為當Cobb硬擠出越來越窄的防火巷時,
就像我們平時做的惡夢一樣

Archetypes. We all dream in certain ways. Teeth falling out, being chased ...
and that stuff is poignant. But the more you explore it, the more you realize
that Chris has already thought about it. I think there is a definitive answer,
but it's hidden so you have to take time to think about it. But I do think it's
real because it's an apostatic act on art itself to suddenly say--
"Well, none of this happened, and I have no explanation."
Rao認為這橋段是真實的
因為若是用夢境來解釋的話, 不能說明為什麼突然有人跟蹤Cobb,
也不能說明這個事件發生的契機與目的


===============Q11. 是否有可能從頭到尾被植入思想的就是Cobb自己?=============

What if Cobb is the one being "incepted" with an idea? We keep hearing the
phrase "Do you want to become an old man, filled with regret?" and it's like
someone — maybe Ariadne because she's the catalyst of his emotional catharsis
— has set this all up so he can let go of his regret over Mal's death.
女大生的角色似乎被定位為--讓Cobb進行自我救贖的催化劑
而這句重複出現的台詞, 則根本是說給Cobb聽的

That's why at the end with Saito he offers to come back and be young again
(not old, full of regret). Even the Edith Piaf song they use to signal ten
seconds before kick translates to "No, I regret nothing." And there's so many
scenes where Ariadne is talking to Cobb, getting him to reveal his issues, in
the same way that Eames tricks Fischer into revealing his issues.
Also, Cobb's kids are the same age at the end, right?
這邊說得滿有道理的, 其他人似乎根本不在乎Cobb跟Mal的羈絆,
只有女大生在那別人喝湯她喊燒 XD
甚至還去偷窺Cobb的夢境 讓人不禁質疑女大生的身份 以及動機

I'm not trying to be authoritative, so this is just my understanding of how
I approached it from my work on it. But you're saying it's like some sort of
crazy-ass psychotherapy session where the whole thing is a constructed
narrative of massive complexity only to distract Cobb so that he will achieve
his change? I mean sure, you could totally say that that's what it is.
In a way, that's what we're doing to Fischer, so it's not unfounded.
這種論調則是認為--這一切的計畫, 都只是為了要治療Cobb的心理障礙
就好像Cobb他們對Fischer做的--與父親的大和解--一樣是一種療程 有何不可?
我前面po的文也是這麼認為 這故事的主旨本來就是在講Cobb的自我救贖
從一開始埋下悔恨的種子, 到女大生點出他應該面對現實, 甚至告訴他--你不該負起全責
然後到Cobb的告解, 正視自己的過錯與現實中更重要的事<回到小孩身邊>,
最後告別長留在他心中 Mal的陰影
施行在Fischer身上的計謀, 其實就是這個理論的例證

The problem for me is that you're using negative evidence to support a story
that isn't there. I don't know what to say about a character who only exists
before and after the movie. You're talking about a character who isn't onscreen
. And I mean on one hand, it's awesome that this movie can sustain that kind of
discussion. It shows you just how well-thought-through and comprehensive it is,
but I mean I don't know where that kind of speculation ends. It's like people
who are convinced 9/11 is an inside job. It's a mental heuristic failure to
think that one or two minor details explain absolutely everything.
I mean, kids wear the same clothes all the time.
然而這種論調卻沒有實質的根據, 永遠都只是在推測一種可能而已

To me, it's a far more elegant story if it's a vast job that Cobb has to pull
off. The threat is real, the growth is real, the adversary is real. The weak-
ness of "It's all a dream" — why we hate that, why we feel cheated when
narratively anything is revealed to be all a dream — is that you've just asked
me to spend so much time and emotional capital investing in the stakes of this,
and you've now swept it away with the most anti-narrative structuralism that
doesn't have anything to substitute in its place. It's laughing at you for even
taking it seriously. You don't want to feel like a victim of the narrative, and
I don't think Christopher Nolan would do that.
Rao不喜歡--這是一場夢--的結局 理由是:
當你將身心靈完全跟著導演沉浸在這兩個半小時的劇情中, 你已經陶醉, 陷入了這架空世界
卻在最後嘲笑你: 哈哈 跟導演認真就輸了!!!
你難道不覺得被當猴子耍了嗎? 所以當然不希望這一切只是場夢

這裡就牽涉到心理學上的--認知失調理論。
當我們花費了心智, 耗費了時間, 去設法理解故事中的一切, 甚至在電影板跟大家討論
像我為了這部片 投資了時間精神 甚至po了這一篇長文 >"<
如果認同了這故事是一場夢, 我們就會出現認知失調

舉個實際的例子: 當一個好人跟邪惡的公主/王子交往了很長一段時間
由於花費了無數心血在經營這段感情, 如果突然發現對方有公主病或王子病
是自己無法忍受的, 進而選擇離開對方
你會覺得自己以前的無數心血就像丟進排水溝一樣, 覺得自己像個白痴
所以你會再三洗腦自己--這不是真的~~我的另一半超完美 對我超好的 所以我才這麼愛他!
這就是為什麼很多人都很難跟難以忍受的另一半分手--不希望出現認知失調

For me, though, this film could say "It's all a dream" and I would feel even
more satisfied. Because the premise is "through a very complex dream, we can
enact real change in a character." All of the sudden it's not a fake-out
bullshit journey, if that's the case. In other words, if I'm satisfied by the
success of Fischer's transformation, then Cobb's growth is just as satisfying.
但記者卻覺得--這是一場夢--的結局也能夠說服他, 甚至更滿意這結局
因為他認同這劇本發展的宗旨是--人可以藉由改變潛意識而改變自己
這又回到了前面的--Cobb的自我救贖論

但我卻認為Cobb的自我救贖, 不管結局是一或二都說得通
他可以一邊幫Fischer進行療程, 同時自己也受益, 所謂教學相長 XD

But he doesn't have to be dreaming for that growth. If, by way of example, in
the last scene where Cobb ran off to hug his kids, there were a reflection of
Mal in the window? That would make it far more vague and I'd say, sure.
But that's not there.
Rao提到, 假設在結尾Cobb去抱小孩時, 在落地窗投射出Mal的倒影
那或許就可以說, Cobb還是在夢中, 並沒有回到現實的這個說法為真
不過實際上並沒有這樣的橋段, 因此他還是傾向結局是真實的
像我前面說的, Cobb的自我救贖跟結局並不牴觸

Close your eyes and listen to the sound at the end. I really do think the top
wobbles and that it's real. Cobb does go on a journey, because that's what
movies are, and I think that's what leads audiences to this kind of speculation
. Because of the story he chose to tell, Nolan is also commenting on the nature
of stories themselves, all stories, which is why Cobb's change can't be
evidence that it's all a dream.
Nolan導的許多片都強調故事劇情的本質. 
畢竟一個導演拍了一部作品 就是在傳遞一個思想, 一個訊息
如果一切都是虛無的, 那就失去了一個作品的影響力, 與它想表達的課題

To me, the real story all boils down to Saito's line in the helicopter.
Cobb wants to go home and see his kids.
Saito says, "I can help you, but it'll have to be an act of faith."
Cobb has to trust Saito, and he does this while putting total faith in himself
and the team, and everything goes apeshit wrong, but he has to believe that if
he does the job, Saito will do what he promised.
對於Rao來說, 將整個劇情視為"真實"的條件 就建築在Cobb跟Saito在直昇機上達成的協議
就是有了這個實質上的協議, Cobb才開始了接下來的動作, 才有了自我救贖的機會
否則他還是在當心靈神偷, 還是在逃嫌犯, 還是永遠無法跟孩子團聚

And they've grown, they've become friends, which is why Cobb says
"Come back and let's be young men together."
Cobb's follow-through on that act of faith is his transformation.
He becomes a person who can take a chance.

There's also kind of a beautiful negative symmetry between that leap of faith,
and Mal begging him to make a similar leap of faith. After he did that with her
, and the guilt plagues him, he can't function anymore. He's exploring his
memories in a dangerous, unhealthy way, and he's going to let that go by the
time the movie's over.
由於之前當Mal要求Cobb對她要有信念時, Cobb可以說是拒絕了
因此後來他再也無法相信人 再也無法對任何事產生信念
但是跟Saito建立起的關係, 他們之間的承諾 讓他再度產生對人/對事抱持信念的能力

Everyone's so concerned about whether the top falls or not, but no one seems to
care that Cobb walked away without caring. The moment he sees their face, he
can walk away. That's testimony to the fact that he's gained that faith.
當大家focus在最後陀螺會不會倒下時, 似乎少有人想到Cobb根本就不在乎這結果
當他看到孩子的臉時, 他重新確認了他的信念, 因此不用靠陀螺來判斷這是不是夢了
他已經有能力分辨--這是現實

以上言論不完全代表本人立場 XD
謝謝收看 Orz

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 114.32.239.117
推 cafelife:其實色碼弄這麼多  反而閱讀困難
推 october9:這篇的概念我很認同！
→ Raist:一樓的 相信我 不這樣弄你更看不懂 因為篇幅很長.....
→ cafelife:我的意思是 閱讀困難 而不是看不懂
很抱歉 我盡力了 如果你比較拿手po文格式 歡迎發一篇 我把這篇d掉也可以

推 gogoSammy:推公主跟王子那裡~~
推 shinyu830:我覺得有色碼比較能看重點...不然一大篇還真想直接end..
→ Raist:我也有想過 分好幾篇發 但是又不好下標題 ~"~ 只好用色碼
→ shamanlin:其實不可能整場都是夢啦，畢竟不管夢有多少層，上一層跟
→ shamanlin:下一層的相對時間是一樣的不會無限放大，如果影片中的現
→ shamanlin:實是夢，那自殺回到現實或上一層的mal應該會把cobb叫醒
→ SHITinHeaven:我比較期待有別的演員跳出來支持不同解釋 XD
推 window904:原來英文腦殘跟失憶同字嗎XD
我沒有這樣說喔......
我只是說 他提到腦子可能會受損 受損有分很多種情況
例如Cobb提到的 失憶 就是其中一種情況

推 Riolove:I read I push ~
推 jojomomo:謝謝~辛苦了~看完以後覺得清楚很多~也有很多新IDEA~
你們看得也很辛苦阿 XDDD 因為有你們 我的辛苦才有價值 Orz

推 xanthous:看了半天回一句 閱讀困難 這種人怎麼會這麼多????
→ xanthous:閱讀困難就不要讀阿 莫名其妙 回那什麼東西
推 ps30:光上色和翻譯費工就值得給個推~
推 pili:看完了 感謝原po 翻譯
※ 編輯: Raist           來自: 114.32.239.117       (07/28 02:10)
推 air3462:推推很用心  也解釋了不少東西
推 atra85:推一下 感謝翻譯 上色看起來蠻好懂的呀XD
推 yaomac:推這篇
推 tonyhsie:推原PO的用心 不過不推Rao的看法 XD
推 ANGELogin:這篇訪談的內容已經有完整討論到結局的真實性與否了
→ ANGELogin:現實還是夢境的結局都可以有很完美的一套解釋
→ ANGELogin:感謝原PO用心地辛苦翻譯及編排 這應該能讓大家釐清不少
推 mosesK:整個計畫是為了救贖上一部電影的李奧(這算爆雷嗎)
推 henry12:推用心!!!
推 ponguy:推 很多事的解釋很清晰
→ Raist:我跟mosesK有同樣感覺耶 XDD 真的會讓人聯想到那部電影
推 limpidsky:色碼可以接受，但請不要用高亮眼睛很疲勞
→ Raist:都用暗的更看不到....說真的 我沒有強迫你們看 有給原文網址
→ Raist:你有選擇閱讀哪篇文章的權利......
推 N1:推用心 看完了 並不會閱讀困難啊 原po不用鳥他們啦
推 xxshihh:推這篇!看完瞭解多一點了!
推 sheepskin:推原po用心，最後一段我覺得很有道理
推 nuker:骰子灌鉛在夢裡不能丟出別的點數這OK，但陀螺在夢裡會一直轉
→ nuker:就很莫名其妙了，那我幹嘛硬要找個蛇螺當圖騰，隨便找個東西
→ nuker:看他會不會一直轉不就OK了= =
推 nuker:圖騰的獨特性是要自己才知道的事，陀螺不會一直轉這誰都知吧
推 ebian:好辛苦!! 很詳細 推