[新聞] 克里斯多福諾蘭接受雜誌訪談，解釋全面啟動的相關問題。

[YuCnL (☎)]

來源：
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/11/pl_inception_nolan/all/1

諾蘭11月接受美國Wired雜誌專訪，回答觀眾對於全面啟動的相關疑問。
原文刊載於12月份Wired雜誌。

Wired並提供一份圖表，標明觀眾對電影不同理解的立論。
(黑底白字部分為導演針對此看法作出的回應)
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/11/pl_inceptionexplained_infograiphc/

問答全文如下:

Q&A: Christopher Nolan on Dreams, Architecture, and Ambiguity

(Spoiler alert: Details and plot points about Inception follow.)

Christopher Nolan, director of Memento, and The Dark Knight, tends to let his
twisty genre deconstructions speak for themselves. But he agreed to talk to
Wired about the decade-long inception of his movie Inception (on DVD December
7). We talked to him about heists, architecture, and the difference between
ambiguity and a lack of answers. Hint: One is better (looking at you, Lost).

Wired: Inception has such high ambitions. What did it take to get the script
to work?

Christopher Nolan: The problem was that I started with a heist film
structure. At the time, that seemed the best way of getting all the
exposition into the beginning of the movie—heist is the one genre where
exposition is very much part of the entertainment. But I eventually realized
that heist films are usually unemotional. They tend to be glamorous and
deliberately superficial. I wanted to deal with the world of dreams, and I
realized that I really had to offer the audience a more emotional narrative,
something that represents the emotional world of somebody's mind. So both the
hero's story and the heist itself had to be based on emotional concepts. That
took years to figure out.

Wired: You mix in other genres as well. There's a bit of noir, and in the
snow scene you play with the conventions of James Bond-style action-movies.

Nolan: I'm a lover of movies, so that's where my brain went. But I think
that's where a lot of people's minds would go if they were constructing an
arena in which to conduct this heist. I also wanted the dreams in Inception
to reflect the infinite potential of the human mind. The Bond movies are
these globe-trotting spy thrillers, filmmaking on a massive scale. The key
noir reference is the character Mal; it was very important to me that she
come across as a classic femme fatale. The character and her relationship to
Cobb's psyche is the literal mani-festation of what the femme fatale always
meant in film noir—the neurosis of the protagonist, his fear of how little
he knows about the woman he's fallen in love with, that kind of thing.

Wired: In addition to genre-play, Inception is also a classic heroic epic—a
Joseph Campbell The Hero with a Thousand Faces type of story.

Nolan: I've never read Joseph Campbell, and I don't know all that much about
story archetypes. But things like The Inferno and the labyrinth and the
Minotaur were definitely in my mind.

Wired: There's a character called Ariadne, named after the woman who helped
guide Theseus through the labyrinth and defeat the Minotaur.

Nolan: Yeah, I wanted to have that to help explain the importance of the
labyrinth to the audience. I don't know how many people pick up on that
association when they're watching the film. It was just a little pointer,
really. I like the idea of her being Cobb's guide.

Wired: A common observation about your movie is that the grammar of dreams
and the grammar of filmmaking have lots of overlap—Inception seems to be a
movie about making movies. Saito is a producer, Cobb's a director, Ariadne's
a writer, and so on. Was that your intention

Nolan: I didn't intend to make a film about filmmaking, but it's clear that I
gravitated toward the creative process that I know. The way the team works is
very analogous to the way the film itself was made. I can't say that was
intentional, but it's very clearly there. I think that's just the result of
me trying to be very tactile and sincere in my portrayal of that creative
process.

Wired: Have you read the online discussions of the film?

Nolan: I've seen some of it, yeah. People seem to be noticing the things
they're meant to notice, the things that are meant to either create
ambiguities or push you in one direction or another. But I've also read
plenty of very off-the-wall interpretations. One of the things you do as a
writer and as a filmmaker is grasp for resonant symbols and imagery without
necessarily fully understanding it yourself. And so there are interpretations
to be imposed on the film that aren't necessarily what I had in my head.

Wired: One of the rules in Inception is that, in a dream, you never know how
you got somewhere. But in filmmaking, by necessity, you cut from one place to
another—for example, from Paris to Mombasa. Does it indicate that Cobb is in
a dream because you don't see how he got to Mombasa?

Nolan: Certainly Inception plays with the relationship between films and
dreaming in a number of different ways. I tried to highlight certain aspects
of dreaming that I find to be true, such as not remembering the beginning of
a dream. And that is very much like the way films tell their stories. But I
wouldn't say I specifically used the grammar of the film to tell the audience
what is dream and what is reality.

Wired: As a filmmaker, are you broadly trying to 「incept」 your audience?
Are you trying help them find some form of catharsis through your work?

Nolan: Well, I think that there's a fairly strong relationship in a lot of
ways between what the team is trying to provide for their subject, Fischer,
and what we're trying to do as filmmakers. For me, a key thing is what Cobb
says about how positive emotion trumps negative emotion every time. I think
that's very true. I also think it's noteworthy how the team must use symbols
to construct an emotional narrative for Fischer. This is extremely similar to
the way a filmmaker uses symbols to give an idea to an audience. The use of
the pinwheel, for example, in Fischer's emotional story. It's a very
cinematic device. A lot of people have related that to Citizen Kane. And that
is exactly the point—it's Rosebud, a visual symbol that sticks in your head
from earlier in the story and then can take on new meaning later on.
Inception definitely seems to be a film about itself, the more I talk about
it. [Laughs.]

Wired: There's also a distinct undercurrent about the importance of
architecture.

Nolan: The only job that was ever of interest to me other than filmmaking is
architecture. And I'm very interested in the similarities or analogies
between the way in which we experience a three–dimensional space that an
architect has created and the way in which an audience experiences a
cinematic narrative that constructs a three–dimensional -reality from a
two-dimensional medium—assembled shot by shot. I think there's a narrative
component to architecture that's kind of fascinating.

Wired: Three times in Inception the camera takes a long pass over a city. You
have Tokyo looking sort of fractal, Paris look–ing very rectilinear, and
Mombasa looking very mazelike. What were you conveying?

Nolan: The idea of showing Mombasa as mazelike was, for me, a very specific
narrative point in the film. When Cobb finally confronts Mal at the end and
she brings up the idea that Cobb no longer believes in one reality, you need
to have shown the audience the potential for the real world to have the same
rule set as the dreams. The mazelike nature of Mombasa was very important for
this.

Wired: So you needed to have a moment where the audience could believe that
Cobb had lost touch with reality?

Nolan: You need to have several moments like that for the ambiguity at the
end of the film to work and for everything that Mal says to Cobb—effectively
he's talking to himself, obviously—to resonate. It's very important that the
dream worlds reflect the same rules as what's presented as reality. It's also
very important that the rules of the dream have analogies to what's presented
as reality. Like the fact that Cobb's being chased by anonymous corporations
around the globe, as well as the maze-like quality of some of the
environments.

Wired: The last line of the movie is Cobb's son saying, 「I built a house,」
 and there's a building made of blocks on the dining table. Most people in
the movie are builders of one kind or another. What does that last line
signify?

Nolan: That's a tricky one. Anyone who's worked with child actors, even ones
as great as the ones in this movie, knows that you basically have to ask a
kid to improvise and they're going to say whatever they want to say. We
certainly tried to choose the most apt takes. But yes, the film is about
architects, builders, people who would have the mental capacity to construct
large-scale worlds—the world of the dream. Everything is about how they
would -create, whether it's blocks or sand castles or a dream. These are all
acts of -creation. There's a relationship between the sand castle the kids
are building on the beach in the beginning of the film and the buildings
literally being eaten away by the subconscious and falling into the sea. The
important thing in Inception is the mental process. What the dream-share
technology enables them to do is remove physicality from that process. It's
about pure creation. That's why it's a film about architects rather than
soldiers.

Wired: And they're so deft with their creative abilities that they can
literally use architecture as a weapon—with the Penrose staircase, for
example.

Nolan: I think it's very analogous to the way people play videogames. When
you play a videogame, you could be a completely different person than you are
in the real world, certain aspects of the way your brain works can be
leveraged for something you could never do in the real world. It was
important, for example, that Cobb not be as physically skilled in the real
world. And when he's charging through Mombasa, I think Leo does a tremendous
job of slightly differentiating his body language and the way he moves in
that world. Of course, that can be based on what he believes of himself in
that particular reality, so …

Wired: [Laughs.] Right. There's a line that I think is key to the movie
that's referenced throughout: 「Do you want to take a leap of faith?」 What
is the importance of that?

Nolan: Without getting too wild and woolly about it, the idea is that by the
end of the film people will start to realize that the situation is very much
like real life. We don't know what comes next, we don't know what happens to
us after we die. And so the idea of the leap of faith is the leap into the
unknowability of where the characters find themselves.

Wired: I've seen the line used to support two interpretations. One is that
it's proof that the entire movie is a dream, something reverberating around
in Cobb's subconscious.

Nolan: Mm-hmm.

Wired: And the other is that it indicates that you as the audience member
have to take a leap of faith and decide whether the ending of the movie is a
dream or not. Would you talk about where on that spectrum you fall?

Nolan: [Laughs.] I don't think I can talk about that, no. The ambiguity is
very much a part of the substance of the film—I'll put it that way. The film
does not specify one way or the other.

Wired: Early on, Cobb spins the top, puts the gun to his head, and the top
falls. It seems that you're giving the audience a baseline moment of reality.

Nolan: Well, we give the character a moment of reality. I like films where
you're receiving the story largely from a subjective point of view. And what
I've tried to do with Inception is to explore this world through Cobb's eyes.
Through the entire film, as you see his dependency on that symbol grow and
through Ariadne's constant questioning of him, I think we start to understand
that the whole reason he needs to spin the top at the beginning is because
he's lost his own sense of what's real and what's not.

Wired: Any other clues that you'd like the DVD audience to pay attention to?

Nolan: The one thing I have heard a lot is the kids are wearing the same
clothes at the end. And they're not. [Laughs.]

Wired: They're not?

Nolan: No, they're not. I'm not giving anything away there. Also I've read a
lot of misunderstanding or misremembering of the way those kids are portrayed
onscreen. But on the Blu-ray, people will be able to check, say, the ages of
the kids.

Wired: The kids are in different clothes and are older at the end?

Nolan: Yes, two sets of kids! The younger version of the boy is actually my
son, and it's not him who turns around at the end. There's no ambiguity here.

Wired: I was so convinced that they were wearing the same clothes.

Nolan: They're very similar but not the same. That I would very much like
people to notice, because it was a very, very difficult thing to pull off,
taking two sets of kids all around the world and filming things two different
ways.

Wired: Wait—is it the second set of kids just at the very end? Or do you
interchange them somewhere else?

Nolan: I don't want to specify too much.

Wired: Wha?

Nolan: I was attempting to portray somebody trying to visualize something
that they can't visualize. It's a combination of memory and imagining and
dream, and all the different ways in which we as human beings are able to
visualize things. The way in which kids appear throughout the film is a
strenuous attempt to play with that.

Wired: Well, while we're talking about the costuming, one of the unique
advantages of having people in tightly tailored clothes and heavily slicked
hair is that they can easily be made to look like they're fighting in zero g.

Nolan: It definitely helped.

Wired: What was it like planning for that zero-g sequence?

Nolan: It can be daunting as your department heads come in and say, 「Well,
hang on a second, you've written this, but how are we going to pull this off?
」 But what I've found in every film is that the prac-ticalities of really
doing things tend to inform the shape and design of the film in productive
ways. A lot of the time I find myself very invigorated by the solutions to
the practical realities we face, whether it's in wardrobe or hair or
photography or whatever. It's those parameters which start to make the thing
unique, make it what it is. I can't really imagine myself ever making an
animated film, because in an animation, you don't have any of those tensions,
those limitations. I'd be missing an important part of my -creative process.

Wired: Is that why you built a spinning set to the do the zero-g scene rather
than do it in CG?

Nolan: Exactly. And so the look of what the characters are wearing, as you
say, the hairstyles, the design of the environment, it all had to be
practical for building those sets. The characters have to be effectively lit
with lighting that can rotate. All of that has an effect on what the world of
Inception is.

Wired: Where'd you get the idea for the spinning top as Cobb's totem?

Nolan: I actually had a spinning top—I'd given it to my wife as a present at
some point many years ago, and I just sort of stumbled across it one day.

Wired: Cobb's top has an interesting shape. It's a pseudosphere, the
topological inverse of a normal sphere.

Nolan: The top I based it on was very, very difficult to spin. So the
particular shape of the top we ended up using—which was custom made for the
film by the prop department—has a particular center of gravity to enable it
to spin practically and easily. All of the shots of the spinning top in the
film are real.

Wired: In the movie you have five levels of reality, at least four of which
are moving at different speeds through time, and you managed to pull off the
distinctions among them using only color palettes. How afraid were you that
you were going to lose people?

Nolan: I was concerned, but I was invigorated by the challenge. And the
crosscutting at the end of the film and the interrelationships between the
levels were the jumping-off point for the whole project. That was what I
first conceived of, and for 10 years I was trying to figure out how to get to
that point at the end of the film. One of the things that gave me that
confidence was that the last 20 minutes of The Dark Knight are based on very
similar principles of crosscutting, parallel action. So we went into the
climactic action of the film knowing the things you need to know to
distinguish environments. One of the limitations we put on ourselves—Wally
Pfister, my director of photography, and myself—is that we didn't want to do
any post-processing on the image. We wanted to have the distinctions there in
the design and the feel, so I wrote it into the script. It's raining in level
one, it's a night-interior in level two, and it's an exterior with snow in
level three. Even if you're cutting to a close-up of Yusuf in the van in
level one, you know where you are because the rain is there.

Wired: Let me try another reading on you: When Cobb and Saito are in limbo,
they agree to a reality where Cobb can see his kids again—and at the end of
the movie we're still in limbo. Care to rule that out?

Nolan: If I start ruling things out, where do I stop? I will go as far as
saying that wasn't the way I read it. [Laughs.] How did you read the end of
the film?

Wired: My reading is that the movie has purposefully done a couple of things
to point you in different directions. I think at the end you're supposed to
remember the line about taking a leap of faith. For your own personal
catharsis as an audience member, you have to decide what is real for
yourself. So I personally choose to believe that Cobb gets back to his kids,
because I have young kids. I want him to get home.

Nolan: People who have kids definitely read it differently than people who
don't. Which isn't the same as saying there's no answer. Sometimes I think
people lose the importance of the way the thing is staged with the spinning
top at the end. Because the most important emotional thing is that Cobb's not
looking at it. He doesn't care.

Wired: Either way, he has found a reality where he got what he needed. I know
that you're not going to tell me, but I would have guessed that really,
because the audience fills in the gaps, you yourself would say, 「I don't
have an answer.」

Nolan: Oh no, I've got an answer.

Wired: You do?!

Nolan: Oh yeah. I've always believed that if you make a film with ambiguity,
it needs to be based on a sincere interpretation. If it's not, then it will
contradict itself, or it will be somehow insubstantial and end up making the
audience feel cheated. I think the only way to make ambiguity satisfying is
to base it on a very solid point of view of what you think is going on, and
then allow the ambiguity to come from the inability of the character to know,
and the alignment of the audience with that character.

Wired: Oh. That's a terrible tease.

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) 
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推 frontin:想直接看翻譯
推 proprome:原來是這樣 導演真厲害
推 newline:求中文版
推 MSme:原來小孩的衣服真的是不一樣的
推 Hans14:果然是不講明的
推 coolokay:原來導演跟我想的一樣
推 yuhui530:哈 跟我想的一樣耶
推 pttnowash:哈 導演跟我想的一樣ㄟ!              (根本沒看內文)
推 hartmann109:厄本！厄本！
推 jasonlu00:還是沒講明阿
推 alljerry04:#1CzxRIok有重點整理
推 Maverick1225:原來如此！（快推，不然人家以為我們看不懂英文XD）
推 alljerry04:[新聞] 全面啟動 導演訪談 如果不想看全文的人可以看這
推 OnanieMaster:總之就是導演有預設結局 但就是要拍成這樣讓觀眾去猜
→ alljerry04:篇，有大家比較在意的地方
推 xxxxxx631:原來齊藤是監製 Cobb是導演 愛莉是寫劇本的 好酷喔
推 cuore5470:翻譯官
推 swsig:總之，就是導演有答案但是不講...電影就是要讓你猜
推 e04ckymadam:諾蘭應該去看Paprika 中文叫做盜夢偵探的一部動畫片
→ e04ckymadam:他會訝異怎麼裡面的東西跟全面啟動有那麼多的相似XD
→ Gravity113:快推文免得別人說我們看不懂(誤
推 stevey:有沒有神人整理出小朋友每次出現的點啊...
→ stevey:導演也不肯說到底是幾時換人的 感覺這會影響結局的解讀
推 llzzyy01:結局是真實世界，但導演還是沒解釋為何脫離夢境的條件
→ llzzyy01:第四層的跳樓為何可以讓第三層醒來
推 swsig:我只能說，導演好詐><
→ tonyhsie:對於kick沒有半分著墨 有點可惜....
推 Hans14:XD 果然是他兒子
推 Aesti:原來如此啊  跟我想的一樣   <--- 這樣推才代表英文好
推 wadechen:Paprika這話題之前吵過了 導演說他沒看過 but who knows
推 goodga:夢境題材的東西本來就會有相似的地方阿
→ goodga:每個人都會做夢的
推 ling30113:原來是這樣~
推 kimcl:快推 不然以為不懂 XDDD &花了半小時看完 有擺道的感覺
推 Original5566:跟板上多數的說法分明就不同...但跟我想的一樣>///<
推 realiori01:來人阿~給我翻譯!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
→ edwin11017:第四層跳樓本來就可以在第三層醒來啊!