這種詩有什麼特徵嗎
有沒有什麼比較有名的詩是這種形式ㄉ
或是可以舉出一個例子
謝謝喔^0^
--
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◆ From: 140.122.193.175
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: julians (給我樂透其餘免談) 看板: poetry
標題: Re: [問題]請問conversation poem
時間: Fri Nov 1 20:28:06 2002
※ 引述《Lxuan (莫忘初衷)》之銘言：
: 這種詩有什麼特徵嗎
: 有沒有什麼比較有名的詩是這種形式ㄉ
: 或是可以舉出一個例子
: 謝謝喔^0^
Andrew Marvell's The Dialogue between the Body and the Soul
(or the Soul and the Body? I don't quite remember)
Wordsworth's Expostulation and Reply, and The Tables Turned
簡單說 就是由兩個人(或以上)對話所行程的
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: bonbonne (Blake) 看板: poetry
標題: Re: [問題]請問conversation poem
時間: Sat Nov 2 00:17:31 2002
※ 引述《julians (給我樂透其餘免談)》之銘言：
: ※ 引述《Lxuan (莫忘初衷)》之銘言：
: : 這種詩有什麼特徵嗎
: : 有沒有什麼比較有名的詩是這種形式ㄉ
: : 或是可以舉出一個例子
: : 謝謝喔^0^
: Andrew Marvell's The Dialogue between the Body and the Soul
: (or the Soul and the Body? I don't quite remember)
: Wordsworth's Expostulation and Reply, and The Tables Turned
: 簡單說 就是由兩個人(或以上)對話所行程的
我覺得不見得是直接對話 也可以是間接對話
如 Wordsworth的 Tintern Abbey
Coleridge 的 Aeolian Harp
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: julians (給我樂透其餘免談) 看板: poetry
標題: Re: [問題]請問conversation poem
時間: Sat Nov 2 08:39:12 2002
※ 引述《bonbonne (Blake)》之銘言：
: ※ 引述《julians (給我樂透其餘免談)》之銘言：
: : Andrew Marvell's The Dialogue between the Body and the Soul
: : (or the Soul and the Body? I don't quite remember)
: : Wordsworth's Expostulation and Reply, and The Tables Turned
: : 簡單說 就是由兩個人(或以上)對話所行程的
: 我覺得不見得是直接對話 也可以是間接對話
: 如 Wordsworth的 Tintern Abbey
: Coleridge 的 Aeolian Harp
恩..在我的認知裡
這兩首飾 dramatic lyric
所謂monologue就是只有一個人說話
conversation poetry是由"dialogue"構成
就是兩個人對話 而且通常很清楚的有兩個persona再做對話
而不是只有一個人說另外一個人沒聲音(Tintern Abbey)
or 只有一個人說話 雖然該speaker有略述它者的想法
(e.g. Eolian Harp)
如果照妳的定義來看話 how about dramatic monologue?
個人覺得 以妳的定義來看 很多詩都可以稱做對話詩囉
e.g. Donne's poetry..
可是我們鮮少稱這些詩為conversation poetry
since there is no "dialogue/conversation" in it.
(愛用者包括 Robert Browning, T.S. Eliot....)
這個文類也可以叫"對話詩"囉?
補充一下 W.B. Yeats 有一手 "A Dialogue of Self and Soul"
也是conversation poetry
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: bonbonne (Blake) 看板: poetry
標題: Re: [問題]請問conversation poem
時間: Sat Nov 2 13:41:10 2002
※ 引述《julians (給我樂透其餘免談)》之銘言：
: 恩..在我的認知裡
: 這兩首飾 dramatic lyric
: 所謂monologue就是只有一個人說話
: conversation poetry是由"dialogue"構成
: 就是兩個人對話 而且通常很清楚的有兩個persona再做對話
: 而不是只有一個人說另外一個人沒聲音(Tintern Abbey)
: or 只有一個人說話 雖然該speaker有略述它者的想法
: (e.g. Eolian Harp)
對話詩在我的定義中 或為一個人或為兩個人或為抽象的事物在
詩行中有形或無形的對話 但其功用在經驗的傳承 或是感情的傳遞
還有一點是值得討論的 對話詩在浪漫主義詩中常出現
應該也算是lyric的一種
在這兒我要強調的是 對話詩要有它的功用存在
不然就跟一般lyric沒差別啦
: 如果照妳的定義來看話 how about dramatic monologue?
這倒不盡然 所謂darmatic monologue 應該含有主角內心的
心理狀態narrator的個性 品德 質氣 不知不覺 在其獨白中展現出來
或許該說是詩行中呈現
Robert browning 為翹首
: 個人覺得 以妳的定義來看 很多詩都可以稱做對話詩囉
: e.g. Donne's poetry..
這個上頭我已經說明了..不知道為何會舉這個詩人的詩
.. 對話詩還有一種定義 就是詩行有不同的人對話交織所產生的
在這個網址看到一些定義
在第一段有小小的定義 有興趣的人可以看看 要有 Acrobat喔 ^^
http://www.ualberta.ca/~mfv/PDF2002/STCEolianDT.pdf
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 61.217.211.179
※ 編輯: bonbonne 來自: 61.217.211.44 (11/02 18:11)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: skyhawk (冰城城主) 看板: poetry
標題: Re: [問題]請問conversation poem
時間: Sat Nov 2 22:29:19 2002
※ 引述《julians (給我樂透其餘免談)》之銘言：
: ※ 引述《Lxuan (莫忘初衷)》之銘言：
: : 這種詩有什麼特徵嗎
: : 有沒有什麼比較有名的詩是這種形式ㄉ
: : 或是可以舉出一個例子
: : 謝謝喔^0^
: Andrew Marvell's The Dialogue between the Body and the Soul
: (or the Soul and the Body? I don't quite remember)
that would be "A Dialogue between the Soul and Body" :)
A Dialogue between the Soul and Body
Soul. O who shall, from this Dungeon, raise
A Soul inslav'd so many wayes?
With bolts of Bones, that fetter'd stands
In Feet; and manacled in Hands.
Here blinded with an Eye; and there 5
Deaf with the drumming of an Ear.
A Soul hung up, as 'twere, in Chains
Of Nerves, and Arteries, and Veins.
Tortur'd, besides each other part,
In a vain Head, and double Heart. 10
Body. O who shall me deliver whole,
From bonds of this Tyrannic Soul?
Which, stretcht upright, impales me so,
That mine own Precipice I go;
And warms and moves this needless Frame: 15
(A Fever could but do the same.)
And, wanting where its spight to try,
Has made me live to let me dye.
A Body that could never rest,
Since this ill Spirit it possest. 20
Soul. What Magick could me thus confine
Within anothers Grief to pine?
Where whatsoever it complain,
I feel, that cannot feel, the pain.
And all my Care its self employes, 25
That to preserve, which me destroys:
Constrain'd not only to indure
Diseases, but, whats worse, the Cure:
And ready oft the Port to gain,
Am Shipwrackt into Health again. 30
Body. But Physick yet could never reach
The Maladies Thou me dost teach;
Whom first the Cramp of Hope does Tear:
And then the Palsie Shakes of Fear.
The Pestilence of Love does heat: 35
Or Hatred's hidden Ulcer eat.
Joy's chearful Madness does perplex:
Or Sorrow's other Madness vex.
Which Knowledge forces me to know;
And Memory will not foregoe. 40
What but a Soul could have the wit
To build me up for Sin so fit?
So Architects do square and hew
Green Trees that in the Forest grew.
Andrew Marvell (1621-1678)
: Wordsworth's Expostulation and Reply, and The Tables Turned
: 簡單說 就是由兩個人(或以上)對話所行程的
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: skyhawk (冰城城主) 看板: poetry
標題: Re: [問題]請問conversation poem
時間: Sat Nov 2 22:32:50 2002
※ 引述《julians (給我樂透其餘免談)》之銘言：
: Wordsworth's Expostulation and Reply, and The Tables Turned
EXPOSTULATION AND REPLY
"WHY, William, on that old grey stone,
Thus for the length of half a day,
Why, William, sit you thus alone,
And dream your time away?
"Where are your books?--that light bequeathed
To Beings else forlorn and blind!
Up! up! and drink the spirit breathed
From dead men to their kind.
"You look round on your Mother Earth,
As if she for no purpose bore you; 10
As if you were her first-born birth,
And none had lived before you!"
One morning thus, by Esthwaite lake,
When life was sweet, I knew not why,
To me my good friend Matthew spake,
And thus I made reply:
"The eye--it cannot choose but see;
We cannot bid the ear be still;
Our bodies feel, where'er they be,
Against or with our will. 20
"Nor less I deem that there are Powers
Which of themselves our minds impress;
That we can feed this mind of ours
In a wise passiveness.
"Think you, 'mid all this mighty sum
Of things for ever speaking,
That nothing of itself will come,
But we must still be seeking?
"--Then ask not wherefore, here, alone,
Conversing as I may, 30
I sit upon this old grey stone,
And dream my time away,"
W. Wordsworth
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: skyhawk (冰城城主) 看板: poetry
標題: Re: [問題]請問conversation poem
時間: Sat Nov 2 22:33:58 2002
※ 引述《julians (給我樂透其餘免談)》之銘言：
: Wordsworth's Expostulation and Reply, and The Tables Turned
THE TABLES TURNED
AN EVENING SCENE ON THE SAME SUBJECT
UP! up! my Friend, and quit your books;
Or surely you'll grow double:
Up! up! my Friend, and clear your looks;
Why all this toil and trouble?
The sun, above the mountain's head,
A freshening lustre mellow
Through all the long green fields has spread,
His first sweet evening yellow.
Books! 'tis a dull and endless strife:
Come, hear the woodland linnet, 10
How sweet his music! on my life,
There's more of wisdom in it.
And hark! how blithe the throstle sings!
He, too, is no mean preacher:
Come forth into the light of things,
Let Nature be your teacher.
She has a world of ready wealth,
Our minds and hearts to bless--
Spontaneous wisdom breathed by health,
Truth breathed by cheerfulness. 20
One impulse from a vernal wood
May teach you more of man,
Of moral evil and of good,
Than all the sages can.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings;
Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:--
We murder to dissect.
Enough of Science and of Art;
Close up those barren leaves; 30
Come forth, and bring with you a heart
That watches and receives.
W. Wordsworth
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: julians (給我樂透其餘免談) 看板: poetry
標題: Re: [問題]請問conversation poem
時間: Tue Nov 5 00:29:29 2002
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※ 引述《bonbonne (Blake)》之銘言：
: 標題: Re: [問題]請問conversation poem
: 時間: Sat Nov 2 13:41:10 2002
:
: ※ 引述《julians (給我樂透其餘免談)》之銘言：
: : 恩..在我的認知裡
: : 這兩首飾 dramatic lyric
: : 所謂monologue就是只有一個人說話
: : conversation poetry是由"dialogue"構成
: : 就是兩個人對話 而且通常很清楚的有兩個persona再做對話
: : 而不是只有一個人說另外一個人沒聲音(Tintern Abbey)
: : or 只有一個人說話 雖然該speaker有略述它者的想法
: : (e.g. Eolian Harp)
:
: 對話詩在我的定義中 或為一個人或為兩個人或為抽象的事物在
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
不過在看過該網頁之後 以及查了一下Norton
coversation poem這個term是Coleridge自己發明的
所以呢我再怎麼aruge也沒用啦.......
所以應該是這個網頁上講的是對的
: 詩行中有形或無形的對話 但其功用在經驗的傳承 或是感情的傳遞
: 還有一點是值得討論的 對話詩在浪漫主義詩中常出現
: 應該也算是lyric的一種
: 在這兒我要強調的是 對話詩要有它的功用存在
: 不然就跟一般lyric沒差別啦
: 對話詩還有一種定義 就是詩行有不同的人對話交織所產生的
基本上 我強調的是這個部分..
Two personas in conversation make a conversation poem.
but..Coleridge invented his own idea, which seems to be
followed since then.
:
: 在這個網址看到一些定義
: 在第一段有小小的定義 有興趣的人可以看看 要有 Acrobat喔 ^^
: http://www.ualberta.ca/~mfv/PDF2002/STCEolianDT.pdf
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
作者: bonbonne (Astare) 看板: poetry
標題: Re: [問題]請問conversation poem
時間: Tue Nov 5 12:40:34 2002
: 不過在看過該網頁之後 以及查了一下Norton
: coversation poem這個term是Coleridge自己發明的
: 所以呢我再怎麼aruge也沒用啦.......
: 所以應該是這個網頁上講的是對的
:
:
: : 對話詩還有一種定義 就是詩行有不同的人對話交織所產生的
:
: 基本上 我強調的是這個部分..
: Two personas in conversation make a conversation poem.
: but..Coleridge invented his own idea, which seems to be
: followed since then.
: :
: 不過 我覺得有疑問的是 conversational poem 跟 conversation
poem 真的是同一個東西嗎
:
:
: Derrida..這世界還真是溝通不良阿..
: language is really failing in communication and explanation.
:
怎會溝通不良..說清楚就好了..網路世界本來就是會這樣
不過倒想看看詩如何被解構 似乎挺有趣的
: :
: : ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
: : ◆ From: 61.217.211.179