[轉錄]確保 (5.3club)

※ [本文轉錄自 sometimes 信箱]

作者: Beethoven (高溫超導蟑螂) 看板: Rockclimbing
標題: 確保!!
時間: Sat Feb 27 22:42:14 1999


  belay..相信每個攀岩者都有過的經驗!

  卻不曾有過的深思!!


  以下是節錄幾段自鬍子寄刊上亞洲盃幾位確保者的經驗談!!

一、 如何不使攀爬者受傷（不只外傷，還有內傷）。
二、 如何不使主繩單點承受太大的衝擊。
三、 在比賽中還要考慮不防礙選手。

  (一位伊籍裁判的經驗談)確保三個最重要的要素!!


   動態確保??
   雖不甚明白, 但有仔細觀察過的人都應該知道,
   當攀爬者縋落時要動態因應墜落的力量, 以減低繩子單點承受衝擊的機會,
   簡單的說, 當攀爬者一墜落, 身體應順勢向前移動(在受力後)並且要跳起,
   換句話來說就是ABS煞車方式就對了啦,
   所以當大家看到世界級比賽時, 為何選手墜落都是一大段距離??
   就知道原因了!!

   以下是鬍子檢討確保手的幾個缺失!!

   確保員任務中所面臨之問題：

1. 下降時之停頓(選手異議)
2. 完攀後未收緊繩索(多次)
3. 選手墜落時確保之強力制動(多次)
4. 確保助理失職--─離開現場
5. 起攀點第一勾環給繩不足
6. 攀登途中給繩不足＜選手私下異議＞
7. 選手8字結繩尾之延伸
8. 抽繩造成選手危險

   以下是鬍子簡單的敘述兩天賽務的過程!!

18日(星期五)進入林口體育館人工岩場報到。此次參賽選手來自亞洲
各國家代表百餘人參與。定線員來自韓國、日本兩位高手。報到後韓
籍定線員要求確保練習指導學習。

(註：運動攀登需動態確保來減低選手墜落時所承受之衝擊)

然而國內缺乏此一動態確保經驗，確保員也只能臨陣磨槍練習，定線
員要求確保員要跳！要跳！練習直到深夜近2時才告一段落。

19日(星期六)比賽正式開始，首先進行是男、女初賽同時進行。比賽
進入膠著狀態，確保繩繫選手之安全，確保者逐一被定線員提醒、警
告、解除；每位確保者均神色凝重，全新應對。當日賽事結束前告知
：明日賽事確保需挑最好之確保者3位出場即可。

20日(星期日)進入男子複賽開賽不久鄰選出3位確保者即被解除一位、
警告一位，在此狀況之下緊急徵召確保者進入協助，雖然比賽中狀況
甚多，但我們的確保員都克盡職首，把該做的事都完成了，我想他們
都做到了。


希望大家對確保都能有再深一步的認知與了解!!


> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <
發信人: [e-mail] (Wen Lin), 看板: mountain
標  題: Re: [轉錄]確保 (5.3club)
發信站: DCI HiNet (Thu Mar 11 01:06:55 1999)
轉信站: NCKU!news1.ncku!news2.ncku!news.ncku!news.civil.ncku!netnews2.csie.nct

From [e-mail] Tue Oct 14 00:17:08 1997
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: Douglas Jones <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:17:08 -0700
--------
maohai huang wrote:
>
> Before the dynamic rope was introduced, when the leader took a fall, the
> belayer had to let go some length of the rope in order to stop the leader
> gradually with a non-dynamic rope ( like a hemp rope ). This will reduce
> the impact force on the leader, the protection, and the rope when the
> leader is being stopped. Without this technique a non-dynamic rope could
> break with a small fall factor fall. There hence was such maxiom that ``The
> rope must run'' for the belayer to remember.
>
> Nowadays everyone and his dog use dynamic ropes. Usually the belayer simply
> lock-up the rope with a belay device and let the rope absorb the impact
> force.  However I wonder if there still are people using dynamic belaying
> technique even with a dynamic rope. Since conceivablly one could "run the
> rope" to let the leader stop at such slow rate that the impact force is
> reduced to close to the body weight of the leader ( from 6-10 kN to 1 to 2
> kN ), given that there is enough clearance for a longer fall.
>
> This would be a good thing if the protection is not solid.
>
> For those who have more than casual experience in doing this ( if there is
> any ) how do you effectivelt adjust the friction? I think it might be easy
> to do with a body belay. How do you do this with a belay device?
>
> Thanks,
>
> - mh

I have, as part of a planned strategy, been ready to let the rope run a
bit when on steep snow or ice. The thinking was, mostly, our protection
was not that great. We also thought a climber falling, on steep snow or
ice, is not in a dead (straight drop) fall and can arrest his or her
fall.

No one ever fell while we were prepaired to use this technique.

I have to say it旧 nerve wracking to plan on using a dynamic belay.
First your thinking if someone falls I want to dig in and stop their
fall before they yank me off the slope. Second, your thinking your
protection not that great (or else you wouldn急 not be thinking of using
a dynamic belay). Lastly, since it旧 a winter assent, your wearing
gloves and worrying that if you let the rope run a bit I might lose and
then jam the belay device with your glove (so much for a dynamic belay)
or the rope would get going too fast to get a grip on.

For my part, I観 glad we live in a time where dynamic belays are rarely
needed.

Douglas Jones
Rupert, Idaho

From [e-mail] Tue Oct 14 00:20:47 1997
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: David Underwood <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:20:47 -0700
--------
maohai huang wrote:
>

> Before the dynamic rope was introduced, when the leader took a fall, the
> belayer had to let go some length of the rope in order to stop the leader
> gradually with a non-dynamic rope ( like a hemp rope ). This will reduce
> the impact force on the leader, the protection, and the rope when the
> leader is being stopped. Without this technique a non-dynamic rope could
> break with a small fall factor fall. There hence was such maxiom that ``The
> rope must run'' for the belayer to remember.
There was an even better reason for dynamic belays.  When gold line was
introduced it was realized that the sudden stop on a non-dynamic belay
could cause as much injury as the fall itself.  People suffered injuries
to internal organs from these sudden stops as gold line is not forgiving
at all. Falls on gold line could produce broken back, necks etc..



From [e-mail] Wed Oct 15 10:27:26 1997
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: John Glick <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:27:26 -0600
--------
David Underwood wrote:
>


> There was an even better reason for dynamic belays.  When gold line was
> introduced it was realized that the sudden stop on a non-dynamic belay
> could cause as much injury as the fall itself.  People suffered injuries
> to internal organs from these sudden stops as gold line is not forgiving
> at all. Falls on gold line could produce broken back, necks etc..


Really? I was under the impression (perhaps incorrect) that goldline is
quite dynamic. My experience  with it has supported this. Is this not
true?

John

From [e-mail] Wed Oct 15 22:42:17 1997
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: [e-mail] (Clyde Soles)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:42:17 -0600
--------
John Glick <[e-mail]> wrote:

> David Underwood wrote:
> >
>
>
> > There was an even better reason for dynamic belays.  When gold line was
> > introduced it was realized that the sudden stop on a non-dynamic belay
> > could cause as much injury as the fall itself.  People suffered injuries
> > to internal organs from these sudden stops as gold line is not forgiving
> > at all. Falls on gold line could produce broken back, necks etc..

Completely wrong.
>
> Really? I was under the impression (perhaps incorrect) that goldline is
> quite dynamic. My experience  with it has supported this. Is this not
> true?

Stuff was like a rubber band. I used it for years :-(

From [e-mail] Thu Oct 16 03:29:53 1997
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: [e-mail] (Hal Murray)
Date: 15 Oct 1997 19:29:53 GMT
--------

I fished out my old copy of "Belaying the Leader" last night.
It says copyright 1956 and refers to Wexler's article in the
1950 AAJ.  It's is a great booklet.  The details are
clearly out of date, but the basic math/engineering is
still important.  It also has early test data on bolts
and knife blade pitons, and the Little Gem catalog.

Page 16 has a graph showing that "soft lay" nylon stretches
about twice as much as manila.

It might be easier to find the 1950 AAJ.

----

Does anybody know of any test data showing the forces
when belay devices slip?  I'm sure there are many
parameters (such as rope size and grip force) but some
numbers to discuss would be a good start.




In my opinion, anybody who doesn't understand the ideas behind
a dynamic belay should stay in the gym - or hope the bolts they
are cliping are good.


From [e-mail] Mon Oct 20 21:35:52 1997
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: [e-mail] (Hendo)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 13:35:52 GMT
--------
In article <6235jh$[e-mail]>,
   [e-mail] (Hal Murray) wrote:
>
>Does anybody know of any test data showing the forces
>when belay devices slip?  I'm sure there are many
>parameters (such as rope size and grip force) but some
>numbers to discuss would be a good start.


Rob Chisnall, in the Ontario Rock Climbing Association's safety manual, has a
detailed analysis of drop tests he carried out to measure various belaying
methods. If you're really interested, I can fax on the results, as this
manual is not easy to obtain outside the Toronto area.


David Henderson
Toronto

From [e-mail] Wed Nov 05 00:47:37 1997
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: [e-mail] (AAA alps)
Date: 4 Nov 1997 16:47:37 GMT
--------
>Murray) wrote:
>>
>>Does anybody know of any test data showing the forces
>>when belay devices slip?  I'm sure there are many
>>parameters (such as rope size and grip force) but some
>>numbers to discuss would be a good start.
>

Check out the Petzl catalog. It's a good place to start for numbers. Their
 website address is www.petzl.com
You will find loads of tech info relating to using a figure 8 and the Grigri.
Have fun
Francis


From [e-mail] Wed Oct 15 23:39:08 1997
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: [e-mail] (Matt DiMeo)
Date: 15 Oct 1997 15:39:08 GMT
--------
In article <[e-mail]>, John Glick  <[e-mail]> wrote:
>Really? I was under the impression (perhaps incorrect) that goldline is
>quite dynamic. My experience  with it has supported this. Is this not
>true?

Me too.  One of John Long's books described it as "stretching like a
rubberband"

-m@

From [e-mail] Thu Oct 16 08:50:18 1997
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: Doug Houston <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:50:18 -0400
--------
John Glick wrote:
>
> David Underwood wrote:
> >
>
> > There was an even better reason for dynamic belays.  When gold line was
> > introduced it was realized that the sudden stop on a non-dynamic belay
> > could cause as much injury as the fall itself.  People suffered injuries
> > to internal organs from these sudden stops as gold line is not forgiving
> > at all. Falls on gold line could produce broken back, necks etc..
>
> Really? I was under the impression (perhaps incorrect) that goldline is
> quite dynamic. My experience  with it has supported this. Is this not
> true?
>
> John

I can state from personal experience that goldline is very dynamic.
Additionaly the 1978 EMS catalog states "Kernmantle type rope is less
elastic than Goldline,especially at loads below 200 pounds. At this load
Goldline will stretch approximately 15% of its loaded length, while a
kernmantle rpoe will stretch less than 7%"

                        Good climbing,
                        Doug

Remove one x from address to reply

From [e-mail] Fri Oct 17 03:13:10 1997
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: [e-mail] (wayne trzyna)
Date: 16 Oct 1997 13:13:10 -0600
--------
In article <[e-mail]>, John Glick  <[e-mail]> wrote:
>David Underwood wrote:
>Really? I was under the impression (perhaps incorrect) that goldline is
>quite dynamic. My experience  with it has supported this. Is this not
>true?

It's been years since I've read anything about this, but goldline
rope stretches quite a bit under low static loads, as anyone who's
used it can testify.  Kernmantle ropes are designed to minimize
stretch under body weight but become dynmaic under higher fall factors.
I vaguely recall that goldline ropes do not absorb force as well
as kernmantle when subjected to higher fall factors, i.e, they "use up"
their elasticity at lower loads.  But I'm not sure.  My memory is vague.

--

-Wayne Trzyna                           Fight spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition
 [e-mail]                Against Unsolicited Commercial Email).
 http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~trzyna    See http://www.cauce.org/

From [e-mail] Thu Oct 16 20:42:00 1997
To: wayne trzyna <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: David Underwood <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 05:42:00 -0700
--------
wayne trzyna wrote:
>
> In article <[e-mail]>, John Glick  <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >David Underwood wrote:
> >Really? I was under the impression (perhaps incorrect) that goldline is
> >quite dynamic. My experience  with it has supported this. Is this not
> >true?
I guess that my memory is failing, but as I remember gold line it was
like climbing with a cable.  We used to use it for belaying students on
free rappels but it did not seem to have as much stretch as the rest of
you remember.  It shure as hell doesn't break.



From [e-mail] Sun Oct 19 20:25:46 1997
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: [e-mail] (Rawdomg)
Date: 19 Oct 1997 12:25:46 GMT
--------
In article <[e-mail]>, David Underwood
<[e-mail]> writes:

>I guess that my memory is failing, but as I remember gold line it was
>like climbing with a cable.

Cable, yes - you can hold 12 feet of it out horizontally without it
bending.  If I am exaggerating, it isn't by much.  But it is stretchy too.
And because it is laid, a single strand free rap will have you spinning
quite a bit.  My partner almost tossed his cookies after we broke in a 600'
spool of Goldline with a terrifying rappel with about 200' free.

Mike (finally cut my Goldline up (after 22 yrs) for yard rope) Rawdon

From [e-mail] Sat Nov 08 21:42:21 1997
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: [e-mail] (ROCKRAZY)
Date: 8 Nov 1997 13:42:21 GMT
--------
In article <625p06$[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (wayne trzyna) writes:

>It's been years since I've read anything about this, but goldline
>rope stretches quite a bit under low static loads, as anyone who's
>used it can testify.  Kernmantle ropes are designed to minimize
>stretch under body weight but become dynmaic under higher fall factors.
>I vaguely recall that goldline ropes do not absorb force as well
>as kernmantle when subjected to higher fall factors, i.e, they "use up"
>their elasticity at lower loads.  But I'm not sure.  My memory is vague.

Assuming that there is no force on the rope at the begining of a fall,
then any force dissipated (used) by the rope is that much less that the
climber, belayer, and anchor will feel.  What is important is to dissipate
as much energy as possible in a smooth manner , in as long a time as possible.

Mark


From [e-mail] Tue Nov 11 00:29:08 1997
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: [e-mail] (John Byrnes)
Date: 10 Nov 1997 16:29:08 GMT
--------
ROCKRAZY ([e-mail]) wrote:
> Assuming that there is no force on the rope at the begining of a fall,
> then any force dissipated (used) by the rope is that much less that the
> climber, belayer, and anchor will feel.

This is true, however...

> What is important is to dissipate
> as much energy as possible in a smooth manner , in as long a
> time as possible.

Bzzzzt!  Sorry Mark, go review the text book again.  If this
were true we'd all be climbing with bungee cords.

- Lord Slime


From [e-mail]_xxx Tue Nov 11 16:36:07 1997
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: Steve Gray <[e-mail]_xxx>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:36:07 +0000
--------
John Byrnes <[e-mail]> said...
>ROCKRAZY ([e-mail]) wrote:

>> What is important is to dissipate
>> as much energy as possible in a smooth manner , in as long a
>> time as possible.
>
>Bzzzzt!  Sorry Mark, go review the text book again.  If this
>were true we'd all be climbing with bungee cords.

ROCKRAZY seems to have forgotten that the ground exists...

"Don't worry, I'm taking as long a time as possible to slow down that
fall becau..."

SPLAT !

--
Steve Gray
Remove _xxx to email me.

From [e-mail] Tue Oct 14 00:58:53 1997
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: [e-mail] (John Byrnes)
Date: 13 Oct 1997 16:58:53 GMT
--------
> maohai huang wrote:
> >         However I wonder if there still are people using dynamic belaying
> > technique even with a dynamic rope.

Of course there is.  Many times when the leader is on an overhanging
wall, the belayer should let out slack to keep the falling leader
from pendulumning (sp?) into the wall.

> > For those who have more than casual experience in doing this ( if there is
> > any ) how do you effectivelt adjust the friction? I think it might be easy
> > to do with a body belay. How do you do this with a belay device?

The angle of the rope into the belay device determines the amount
of friction.  Start with your belay hand somewhat forward and bring
it back to your hip during the fall.   Of course you can't do this
with a GriGri.

- Lord Slime


From [e-mail] Tue Oct 14 10:02:05 1997
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: [e-mail] (D B FRAZ)
Date: 14 Oct 1997 02:02:05 GMT
--------
It is not uncommon to see belayers jump off the ground before their
falling partner reaches the end of his or her rope.  It is also not
uncommon to see them get yanked off the ground when they have 10 feet of
slack out and their partner takes a 40 footer when they are not paying
attention.

David

From [e-mail] Tue Oct 14 12:49:10 1997
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: [e-mail] (Cratticus)
Date: 14 Oct 1997 04:49:10 GMT
--------
It is also  important to remember that a dynamic belay results in a longer fall
 for the leader.  If there is a danger of falling on a ledge or a part of the
 rock that is not 90 degrees or more then a dynamic belay is a bad choice.
 Your best bet is climbing with a partner that has good judgement and can
 decide when a dynamic belay is appropriate and when it's not.  it is important
 to remember that a true dynamic belay is a relatively difficult skill.  There
 is not a lot of time to react and most people, including experienced climbers,
 will oftern screw up when attempting a belay technique that they are not
 familiar with.

From [e-mail] Fri Oct 17 03:01:32 1997
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: dynamic belay
From: [e-mail] (wayne trzyna)
Date: 16 Oct 1997 13:01:32 -0600
--------
If you're going to use a dynamic belay as an integral part of your
protection scheme, I suggest you go someplace safe and practice it
first.

--

-Wayne Trzyna                           Fight spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition
 [e-mail]                Against Unsolicited Commercial Email).
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http://www.alpine.com.tw/~alpes

Wen Chih Lin