[討論] 經濟學人否定學生(民進黨)訴求

[puec2 ( .＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿.)]

http://tinyurl.com/l9dy6ph

On the antlers of a dilemma


    ...Students occupying parliament have resorted to undemocratic
    means, and many of the arguments they and the DPP make about the
    trade agreement are specious....

    ...學生佔領議會是反民主的，而且學生和民進黨關於貿易協議的訴求
    都是刻意誤導...


其他部分大概就是在描述大腸花的形成背景。主要是認為馬的親中政策讓
某些人產生疑慮。才會在台灣產生迴響。至於對帶頭人的評價，人家已經
講得很清楚囉。(攤手

整篇裡面除了這段都沒有價值判斷，負面意見也是引用DPP的發言。這些人
真的可以洗洗睡了。
===================

全文


    THE fresh-faced good looks have been lined and drawn by the cares
    of office. His immaculate English is forsaken for the dignity of
    immaculate Mandarin. Patient replies to questions come wearily, as
     if said many times before. Yet, six years into his presidency, Ma
     Ying-jeou’s hair remains as lush and jet-black as any Chinese
    Politburo member’s. And, speaking in the presidential palace in
    Taipei, he remains as unwilling as any leader in Beijing to admit
    to any fundamental flaws in strategy.

    Perhaps Mr Ma draws inspiration from his portrait of Sun Yat-sen,
    founder of his ruling party, the Kuomintang (KMT), and, in 1912,
    of the Republic of China to which Taiwan’s government still owes
    its name. Sun is revered as a nationalist hero not just by the KMT
     but, across the Taiwan Strait, by the Chinese Communist Party
    too. Mr Ma may also hope to be feted on both sides of the strait—
    in his case as a leader responsible for a historic rapprochement.
    For now, however, reconciliation between Taiwan and China remains
    distant. And Mr Ma, once the KMT’s most popular politician, is
    taunted by opponents as the “9% president”, a reference to his
    approval ratings in opinion polls last autumn.

    Economic integration

    Improving relations with China has been the central theme of his
    administration, after the tensions of eight years of rule by the
    Democratic Progressive Party (DPP), which leans towards declaring
    formal independence from the mainland. Mr Ma can boast of 21
    agreements signed with China. He reels off the numbers of two
    fast-integrating economies: a tenfold increase in six years in
    mainland tourists to Taiwan, to 2.85m in 2013; cross-strait
    flights from none at all to 118 every day; two-way trade,
    including with Hong Kong, up to $160 billion a year.

    China’s strategy to reabsorb Taiwan is plain. As the island’s
    economy becomes more intertwined with that of the vast mainland,
    China thinks, resistance to unification will wane. Then Taiwan
    becomes an “autonomous” part of China—like Hong Kong, though
    allowed its own army. Taiwan will return to the motherland without
     resort to the missiles and increasingly powerful armed forces
    ranged against it. But as Mr Ma sees it, cross-strait “
    rapprochement” is a first line of defence against Chinese
    aggression, since “a unilateral move by the mainland to change
    the status quo by non-peaceful means would come at a dear price”.
     Politics in Taiwan is framed as a debate about independence or
    unification but is really about preserving the status quo.

    The next step in rapprochement with China would be a meeting
    between political leaders. In February in Nanjing, once the
    capital of a KMT government of all China, ministers from China and
     Taiwan held their first formal meeting since 1949. Mr Ma hoped to
     meet China’s president, Xi Jinping, in Beijing this November, at
     the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation (APEC) summit. To
    accommodate Hong Kong and Taiwan, APEC’s members are not “
    countries” but “economies”. So Mr Xi and Mr Ma could meet as “
    economic leaders”, sidestepping the tricky protocol that usually
    dogs relations, with China viewing Taiwan as a mere province. The
    Chinese demurred. But Mr Ma thinks a meeting somewhere is “not
    outside the realm of possibility”.

    This backdrop explains why a protest movement against a
    services-trade agreement with the mainland is more than a little
    local difficulty for Mr Ma. Students occupying parliament have
    resorted to undemocratic means, and many of the arguments they and
     the DPP make about the trade agreement are specious. But they
    have tapped a vein of popular mistrust of Mr Ma and of economic
    integration with the mainland. A split persists between native
    Taiwanese, on the island for generations, and mainlanders, like Mr
     Ma, whose families came over as the KMT lost the civil war in the
     1940s. Protesters portray Mr Ma as either a mainland stooge or as
     clueless and out of touch. In the occupied parliament, student
    caricatures give him antlers, a reference to a slip he once made
    when he appeared to suggest that the deer-antlers used in Chinese
    medicine were in fact hair from the animal’s ears.

    Mr Ma says public opinion supports a “Ma-Xi” summit. Joseph Wu
    of the DPP, however, claims such a meeting would actually damage
    the KMT in the next presidential election, due in 2016; rather, he
     says, Mr Ma is trying to leave a personal legacy. The DPP’s lead
     in the polls alarms not just the Chinese government but also
    America, which could do without another flare-up in a dangerous
    region. The stronger China grows, the more Taiwan’s security
    depends on commitments from America. It switched diplomatic
    recognition to Beijing in 1979, but Congress then passed a law
    obliging it to help Taiwan defend itself.

    All political lives end…

    Mr Ma says relations with America are better than they have ever
    been at least since 1979 and perhaps before. Others are doubtful.
    In all the talk of America’s “pivot” to Asia, its promises to
    Taiwan are rarely mentioned. Many in Taiwan paid attention when
    John Mearsheimer, an American academic, suggested in the National
    Interest, a policy journal, that there is “a reasonable chance
    American policymakers will eventually conclude that it makes good
    strategic sense to abandon Taiwan and to allow China to coerce it
    into accepting unification.” For some, abandonment is a fact of
    life and unification a matter of time. “No one is on our side
    strategically, diplomatically, politically; we have to count on
    China’s goodwill,” an academic in Taipei argues.

    Mr Ma has tried to steer what seems a sensible middle course
    between such defeatism and the adventurism of those in the DPP who
     would like to confront and challenge China. But he sounds weary
    with the effort, and Taiwan’s people seem weary of him. Their
    pragmatism and the DPP’s internecine strife may yet see them
    elect another KMT president in 2016. But if Mr Ma hoped to leave
    office with cross-strait relations stabilised, and with his own
    role as an historic peacemaker recognised on both sides and around
     the world, he seems likely to be disappointed.


--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 211.76.175.170
※ 文章網址: http://www.ptt.cc/bbs/HatePolitics/M.1395977711.A.D7F.html
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 11:36)
推 j3307002:吱:經濟學人統媒不可信
→ puretd:馬幫伯出處欸 不能提了 統媒還是黨工阿
→ peteref:speciou翻成華而不實比較有味道啊…呵呵
推 mjdrcb:吱吱:經濟學仁是統沒 黨工 開始肉搜
→ peteref:specious
推 tmcharvard:吱:經濟學人是中共同路人,不可信
推 Crocodylus:（大笑）
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 11:39)
→ ebi:經濟學人下去領500
→ DongRaeGu:BBC中文網為近社論也是差不多立場 只是再補充現在民調
→ DongRaeGu:很差的馬英九繼續讓這件事發酵對他執政更不利
→ chrisstar:經濟學人被國民黨收買了
推 puretd:可是八卦版現在還有一篇經濟學人鹿茸文欸
→ puec2:就是同一篇啊。
→ lostt:puec2能不能貼全文? 我已經達到economist一週三次上限，沒辦
→ lostt:法看..Orz
→ lostt:原文就好
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 11:44)
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 11:45)
推 lostt:感激！
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 11:47)
推 liskenny:http://ppt.cc/apq5 原文連結
推 ShionjiYuuko:怒肉蒐經濟學人
→ liskenny:現在在八卦板是一文各表  他們說經濟學人支持學生
→ liskenny:(但明明以往都是說經濟學人是大陸打手的捏......)
推 avadar:英國美國的民主素養比不上我們台灣人
→ avadar:人民佔領立院是主流民意
→ puec2:經濟學生講得很清楚啦，這就是反中。
推 Sakurasai:通篇就是冷嘲熱諷啊 在嘲諷我們的總統跟學運的不切實際
→ j3307002:肉蒐經濟學人XD
→ avadar:連聯合中時，都不敢說佔立院不民主了
推 jsoccer:幫人肉
推 venusinfurs:水啦!
→ IrvinYuan:馬幫博國際認證！(咦?
推 tsgd:經濟學人又黑了 問題是前面那篇講馬幫博的其實也是隱喻暗諷
→ puec2:暗諷沒關係，我比較在意的是外國主流媒體怎樣看待主事的
→ puec2:學生。
→ puec2:其實我們很少看到外媒用"反民主"去批評抗議活動..
→ Ferysis:PPP超越日英(+1) 學生反民主(+1) 馬幫博(-1)  總分大於1
→ Ferysis:就是黨工無誤
→ puec2:反民主已經是很嚴重的指控了。
→ j3307002:其實我們很少看到外媒用"反民主"去批評抗議活動XD
→ puec2:通常是政敵之間會批評對方反民主，這次經濟學人出來直接用
→ silveryfox99:就是黨工嘛(吱
→ puec2:反民主/不民主批評"學生"運動，實為罕見。
推 purin820611:抓到了! 經濟學人編輯是黨工 下去領500!
推 tsgd:自然是反民主 明明沒有力籌碼卻提出政府等同無條件投降的要求
→ j3307002:undemocratic,太明顯,不民主,經濟學人罵的好
推 sxxs: 經濟學人黑了
→ tsgd:要嘛就是真刀真槍的革命 成功了評價任你訂 失敗當然要付出代
我google了一下，經濟學人在什麼情形下會主動用到undemocratic這個字，
一個例子是形容緬甸國會，另一個例子是形容埃及軍政府 XDDDD
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 12:08)
→ tsgd:但現在那批人無賴般的行為 既要糖吃又不肯付代價 跨丟鬼!
→ j3307002:一個例子是形容緬甸國會，另一個例子是形容埃及軍政府XD
推 lesnaree2:職業垃圾學生
推 sxxs: 太陽花學匪 = 緬甸國會 = 埃及軍政府
→ venusinfurs:就說是反民主運動，倒退50年，一群暴民...
→ noonee:現在看到為什麼說馬英九是笨蛋的理由了吧
→ noonee:這種情況都還放任亂搞 當然是笨蛋
→ j3307002:要是歐美日元首早下令鎮壓
推 lesnaree2:馬到底可不可以下令進攻立院?
→ puec2:不行。國會就是王金平最大，王金平要調動軍隊保衛國會都可以
→ noonee:今天好多新聞 有江宜樺講話 有王金平講話 沒看到版友貼
推 MsKing:原來國會是治外法權(誤)
推 tina1007:就是不行啊 倒閣案去年也玩過了 不然幹嘛學生進去佔?
推 lesnaree2:後面那段說 學生操作大家對馬不信任和恐中
→ lesnaree2:國外看得清清楚楚 為什麼這些學生就是不懂
→ MsKing:哪裡是不懂 本來就是反馬跟反中
推 fen1110:笑死人 你確定那句話是經濟學人在下判斷?
→ fen1110:這是和馬英九專訪之後寫出來的文章 講的都是馬的觀點以及
→ MsKing:訴諸非民主的手段 樓上看不懂厚
→ fen1110:馬碰到的困境  這樣還不知道下這個判斷的是誰? 就是馬!
→ fen1110:經濟學人這一篇相當的中立 指出馬的觀點的同時 也說出學生
→ MsKing:標題都跟你說是反中了 還在扯馬XD
→ fen1110:和民進黨互相利用台灣人對馬的厭倦
XDDD 最好是這句話是馬的觀點。你當我看不懂英文嗎？

→ lesnaree2:.....
→ venusinfurs:老愛來精神勝利法...
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 12:22)
→ lesnaree2:你去花果山跳這個針吧..
推 MsKing:精神勝利法 老招了
→ fen1110:把學生視為反民主什麼時候不是馬的觀點了XD
其實我有附全文，你要不要認真看完再發言？
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 12:27)
推 Sakurasai:有人不看文章就在造謠
推 yungde:真的當人家都看不懂英文，結果只能出醜
→ Sakurasai:吱吱可以不要這麼反智好嗎 這樣很難理性討論
推 dlmgn:八卦版翻譯完全漏掉那句話...各種露下線阿
我想也是，所以我完全懶得去看他們的翻譯。哈哈。
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 12:30)
→ sxxs: 八X版超反智的   XD
推 Sakurasai:八卦版就一群人窩在一起取暖啊 只看該版真的會覺得國家
→ Sakurasai:要滅亡了
→ lesnaree2:故意漏掉 真的是無腦到這樣了嗎?
推 fen1110:我才懷疑你懂英文嗎 不切實際和刻意誤導?
哈，我就等你這句話。我托福iBT英文閱讀只考了30分，大概真的不太懂吧。

推 lostt:本來想整篇翻，但太難了..Orz
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 12:34)
→ fen1110:使用"非民主手段"和"是反民主"的?
→ lesnaree2:戰不了其他的要戰specious這個字嗎
推 MsKing:訴諸非民主手段不是反民主不然是啥XDD
→ lesnaree2:就好像吱吱 訴諸非智能手段  的確是反智
台灣是民主社會，在民主社會中訴諸非民主手段，不是反民主是什麼？
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 12:37)
推 yungde:他意思大概是說用非民主手段來達成他的民(進黨做)主吧？
推 dlmgn:所以埃及跟緬甸軍政府都會使用非民主手段，沒什麼嘛
推 fen1110:你不是不懂 只不過是因為你對這篇文章下的前提:我想看出外
看吧，又開始誅心了～～我怎麼一點都不意外。
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 12:38)
→ MsKing:前題跟非民主手段是兩回事 柯柯
推 sxxs: 不管啦!!! 你一定不懂英文(指)
→ lostt:specious英英字典(Dr.Eye)的定義：superfically plausible,
→ lostt:but actually wrong
所以我覺得我用誤導應該沒有什麼問題，誤導用得還算輕了。

吱己人這段連翻譯都不敢翻譯，竟然跑來一個字一個字的質疑把這句話
翻譯出來的人，真是好民主喔～

→ fen1110:媒對於學生運動的"價值判斷" 而無視這篇文章點題寫馬拒絕
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 12:40)
→ fen1110:承認錯誤
→ lostt:superficially:淺薄的。plausible:貌似有理的
→ lostt:but actually wrong，這就不用我翻譯了
推 dlmgn:這兩者又不衝突，而且你前面戰點不是這個喔~發現戰不下去？
敵進我退。又是一個毛澤東的好學生。
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 12:40)
→ MsKing:他要說前題對就不是反民主啦 凹不下去了XD
→ lostt:打錯，是superficially
→ dlmgn:他前面先說這是馬英九觀點，再來說英文程度有問題，非民主手
→ dlmgn:段不等於反民主，最後開始戰刻意忽略...
→ lostt:#1JBdVFpm 3/23 五天前我就說了：
→ lostt:等學生學會謙卑，低頭自省，自會看見被踐踏的民主
→ lostt:318 32字箴言：「既不民主，又無法治」
推 DudeFromMars:有看完有推，那句話還蠻重的。
推 aaaazzzzsung:看來吱又跑了（拎著爆米花離開
→ venusinfurs:我一直很納悶，明明就是反民主，還好意思到各國媒體
推 imgkiller:哈哈 這篇超搞笑 亂翻成這樣竟然有人還有人大推
推 yuriaki:哈哈哈 下面余英時痛打經濟學人臉?
推 elfyblack:不管華而不實還是似是而非，總之就是錯誤嘛，承認很難嗎
推 mornlunar:同一個英文。正常人和猴群看的居然會有差異XD
→ venusinfurs:宣傳取暖，我真的是看得很難過...
→ imgkiller:請先查查 undemocratic means之前的片語 resort to sth.
→ lostt:resort to我剛有查，請看例句
推 dlmgn:學生訴諸非民主手段，怎麼了嗎？
→ viery:RESORT TO事很簡單的片語 柯柯
→ imgkiller:然後什麼時候 specious可以翻成刻意誤導了 它前面的名詞
→ imgkiller:也不是啥學生跟民進黨的訴求....
推 elfyblack:訴諸非民主的手段
→ imgkiller:resort to sth: to do something you DONOT WANT to do
→ imgkiller:because you cannot find any other way of achieving
→ lesnaree2:..........
推 dlmgn:民進黨與學生製造的爭論很多是specious的，有問題？
→ imgkiller:sth.  要貼切文意應該是
→ dlmgn:翻訴求是不太對，但是還是輕微的指責語氣阿
→ lesnaree2:我覺得你還是去戰作者比較快
推 elfyblack:你這樣說，難道就沒做了嗎？做了就是做了。
→ puec2:還在想undemocratic怎麼翻嗎？XDDDDDDDDDD
→ lesnaree2:文章下面可以回應  去戰作者吧 別在這搞笑
→ imgkiller:"被迫用不民主的手段"
→ viery:I大這話跟他那前提說不是一樣XDD
→ puec2:被迫應該是 forced to. 誰force了？
→ imgkiller:敢引用全文 卻只翻兩句還是曲解文意照自己的想像翻 XDDD
→ lesnaree2:應該是被恐中逼迫的
→ puec2:你以為人家寫文章沒有斟酌過嗎？
推 DudeFromMars:“訴諸不民主的手段”
→ lesnaree2:又來跳針秀下限..
推 sxxs: 戰作者比較快  XDDDD
→ puec2:講"forced to"就有價值判斷在裡面了，可惜人家是用
推 viery:誰跟你說resort to就是被強迫的 不要自己亂翻好嗎XD
→ puec2:resort to. 哈哈
推 pennymarkfox:不要再為了香焦出賣你的靈魂了...
推 elfyblack:還有specious對的就是argument，你知道形容詞字句嗎？
→ venusinfurs:我IBT閱讀只有28不敢講話...
→ puec2:其實我有更好的翻法可以幫學生解套，但是我要先徵mac pro
推 imgkiller:然後原PO引用的第二句之後有一個大大的BUT 原PO直接無視
→ puec2:，徵到再說。XDDDDD
推 pttsam:太陽花吱會崩說他們雖然不民主但是有正當性...
→ lesnaree2:真的  香蕉真的有這麼好 值得出賣自己的智商嗎
→ viery:太陽吱早就承認自己不民主了 幹嗎幫他們護航XDD
推 aaaazzzzsung:難怪學生會怕服貿 因為他們真的沒時麼競爭力
推 dlmgn:那個but給人的感覺是雖然這樣做看起來很爛，但還是有效果
→ aaaazzzzsung:每次跑來政黑爭辯都被打臉...
→ dlmgn:我也不知道為什麼原PO不翻那個but...
→ viery:那句就是在說反馬跟反中啊 標題就說了
→ viery:今天不承認自己就是反中的事學生
→ puec2:"但是他們掌握了社會對馬英九以及中國的不信任"
→ elfyblack:意思大概是利用了反馬&反中的情緒所以得到共鳴 有錯嗎?
→ puec2:這只是描述事實啊。(攤手
推 aaaazzzzsung:不要只看到but就高潮好不好XD 斷章取義的是誰
→ viery:那句根本不影響全文
→ puec2:可能只看得懂那個but 國中英文有教
→ elfyblack:這句不是在幫學生辯護好嗎? 看到but就很開心orz
→ aaaazzzzsung:我有點擔心你考英文閱讀測驗時的分數耶
→ viery:BUT要看他後面寫什麼 他已為BUT=否定 XD
→ ChangWufei:這邊的but以中文而言應該是然而這樣的轉折語氣
→ damm:在這裡幫KMT的英文都不太好?
推 DudeFromMars:整段只看得懂but, 還可以討論得這麼開心…
推 aaaazzzzsung:討論英文又扯上KMT 這次不跳針改成放大絕?
→ lesnaree2:請那個抓到but就高潮的回來繼續講
→ elfyblack:可能在複習形容詞子句跟轉折語氣
推 viery:那些說別人英文不好的來指正啊 怕你不敢
→ aaaazzzzsung:英文老師大概都去立院外靜坐了 難怪要到政黑板討教
→ viery:說別人英文差結果一個屁野放不出來
→ aaaazzzzsung:他們英文大概只懂三個單字　1.K 2.M 3.T
→ lostt:這大概就是有知識有學問的學生和林飛帆所要的「光榮」
→ lostt:還有姚立民、教授一票知識份子所要的「光榮的公民不服從」
推 guare:Merriam Webster關於specious的解釋falsely appearing to be
→ guare:fair, just, or right; appearing to be true but actually
→ guare: false
推 elfyblack:OALD解釋比較精簡:seeming right or true but actually
→ elfyblack:wrong or false
→ popstarkirby:基本上這篇文章重點不在那段...是在馬英九面臨的兩難
→ lostt:那一段是台灣目前價值觀爭議的重點
→ MsKing:現在是有人不承認自己反中 柯柯
推 delavino:抓到了,經濟學人是統沒
→ lostt:反中不是問題，問題在佔立法院重傷民主
→ MsKing:人家說自己是被逼得XD
→ puec2:是啊 你要反中反美反日關我屁事 憑什麼佔我的立法院？
→ lostt:閒聊一鑑，un-算是not，a或anti才是agaist，undemocratic我
→ MsKing:因為說自己反中就沒正當性了 當然死不承認
→ lostt:會翻成非民主手段
→ lostt:沒仔細去查，印象中是這樣
→ puec2:非民主手段太嗷口了。英文有很多東西其實你要全翻的話，就
→ puec2:不像中文了。
推 DudeFromMars:specious = 似是而非
→ lostt:似是而非，這詞好
推 aaaazzzzsung:好像在跟你談服貿其實並不完全是<<<這樣?
→ elfyblack:許多學生與DPP針對貿易協議提出的訴求都是似是而非的
→ tearcolor:經濟學人撰稿者八成不懂學生在抗爭甚麼
→ tearcolor:因為程序、法律都與經濟無關，他寫進去也沒意義
→ tearcolor:而且這次抗爭的確跟服貿的經濟內容毫無關係
→ MsKing:講不過就說經濟學人不懂 當初BUMBLER怎不這麼說呢XD
→ venusinfurs:是雞排那位T大嗎?
→ elfyblack:跟經濟內容毫無關係? 你確定嗎XD
推 pennymarkfox:唉呀，政黑要多了個雞排哥了這下...
推 koexe:經濟學人一直婊馬啊