[心得] 聖經沒有分神的國和天國？

[df31 (DF-31)]

聖經沒有分神的國和天國？


推 springxx:    我只知道聖經有提過 三層天  沒聽過有分天國跟神國    08/23 01:13
→ springxx: 你們還真敢講                                          08/23
01:13

嗯。。。。。。建議S大好好補補英文，否則，會很難看的。

當然，我先聲明：逼人，在下，區區，不才。。。。非常樂意看見對於地方召會的批判。
不過，希望批判者(或者【想要做師傅】的人士)能夠具有【最起碼】的神學素養，否則，會很難看的。

言歸正傳。【天國】在英文裡是【kingdom of heaven】。【神的國】是【kingdom of
God】。以下是相關的【部分】經文，請S大參考。

============================

Matthew 18:3
and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like
children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:23
And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich
man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 16:19
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on
earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall
have been loosed in heaven."

Mark 4:26-29
And He was saying, "The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the
soil; and he goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts
and grows--how, he himself does not know. "The soil produces crops by itself;
first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head.      read
more.
Topics on Kingdom Of Heaven

Matthew 13:44-46
"The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man
found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has
and buys that field. "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking
fine pearls, and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all
that he had and bought it.

Matthew 13:31-43
He presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is like
a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; and this is smaller
than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden
plants and becomes a tree, so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR come and NEST IN ITS
BRANCHES." He spoke another parable to them, "The kingdom of heaven is like
leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all
leavened."      read more.

Matthew 13:47-52
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and
gathering fish of every kind; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the
beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the
bad they threw away. "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will
come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,    read more.

Matthew 25:14-30
"For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own
slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. "To one he gave five talents,
to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and
he went on his journey. "Immediately the one who had received the five
talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.        read more.

Matthew 25:1-13
"Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their
lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. "Five of them were foolish, and
five were prudent. "For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil
with them,      read more.

Matthew 22:1-14
Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be
compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. "And he sent out his
slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were
unwilling to come.      read more.

Matthew 13:24-30
Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may
be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. "But while his men
were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
"But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident
also.   read more.

Matthew 20:1-16
"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the
morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. "When he had agreed with the
laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. "And he
went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market
place;  read more.

Matthew 18:21-35
Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin
against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I do
not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. "For this
reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle
accounts with his slaves.       read more.

Luke 8:10
And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom
of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE,
AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming
to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the
children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to
such as these.

Matthew 19:23-24
And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich
man to enter the kingdom of heaven. "Again I say to you, it is easier for a
camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the
kingdom of God."

Mark 10:23
And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, "How hard it will be for
those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!"

Luke 18:29-30
And He said to them, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house
or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of
God, who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to
come, eternal life."

Mark 4:30-34
And He said, "How shall we picture the kingdom of God, or by what parable
shall we present it? "It is like a mustard seed, which, when sown upon the
soil, though it is smaller than all the seeds that are upon the soil, yet
when it is sown, it grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants
and forms large branches; so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR can NEST UNDER ITS
SHADE." read more.

==============================

Psalm 47:7-8
For God is the King of all the earth; Sing praises with a skillful psalm. God
reigns over the nations, God sits on His holy throne.

1 Samuel 12:12
"When you saw that Nahash the king of the sons of Ammon came against you, you
said to me, 'No, but a king shall reign over us,' although the LORD your God
was your king.

1 Chronicles 16:31
Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice; And let them say among
the nations, "The LORD reigns."

1 Chronicles 28:5
"Of all my sons (for the LORD has given me many sons), He has chosen my son
Solomon to sit on the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.

1 Chronicles 29:11-12
"Yours, O LORD, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory
and the majesty, indeed everything that is in the heavens and the earth;
Yours is the dominion, O LORD, and You exalt Yourself as head over all. "Both
riches and honor come from You, and You rule over all, and in Your hand is
power and might; and it lies in Your hand to make great and to strengthen
everyone.

Psalm 9:7-8
But the LORD abides forever; He has established His throne for judgment, And
He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the
peoples with equity.

Psalm 45:6
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the
scepter of Your kingdom.

Psalm 93:1-2
The LORD reigns, He is clothed with majesty; The LORD has clothed and girded
Himself with strength; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not
be moved. Your throne is established from of old; You are from everlasting.

Psalm 103:19
The LORD has established His throne in the heavens, And His sovereignty rules
over all.

Psalm 145:11-13
They shall speak of the glory of Your kingdom And talk of Your power; To make
known to the sons of men Your mighty acts And the glory of the majesty of
Your kingdom. Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And Your dominion
endures throughout all generations.

Isaiah 37:16
"O LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, who is enthroned above the cherubim, You
are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth You have made heaven
and earth.

Daniel 4:34-35
"But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward
heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised
and honored Him who lives forever; For His dominion is an everlasting
dominion, And His kingdom endures from generation to generation. "All the
inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to
His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one
can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

Isaiah 51:4-5
"Pay attention to Me, O My people, And give ear to Me, O My nation; For a law
will go forth from Me, And I will set My justice for a light of the peoples.
"My righteousness is near, My salvation has gone forth, And My arms will
judge the peoples; The coastlands will wait for Me, And for My arm they will
wait expectantly.

Mark 15:43
Joseph of Arimathea came, a prominent member of the Council, who himself was
waiting for the kingdom of God; and he gathered up courage and went in before
Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus.

Luke 23:51
(he had not consented to their plan and action), a man from Arimathea, a city
of the Jews, who was waiting for the kingdom of God;

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 117.19.6.222
※ 文章網址: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Christianity/M.1503931502.A.6A4.html
※ 編輯: df31 (117.19.6.222), 08/28/2017 22:50:31
推 neohippie: 翻譯與使用差異一定有的，但問題是兩個用法/翻譯
→ neohippie: 指的是同樣的東西還是不同的東西?
→ neohippie: 老漁大的看法如何?
不如，您告訴我monkey和man是同一個東西？

推 springxx: 我父的家 神的國 天國 樂園   是不是指同一個地方
推 sysop5566: 千年國 不是 天堂

不知道誰『真敢講』：『我只知道聖經有提過 三層天  沒聽過有分天國跟神國  你們還真敢講』

別『轉移話題』，『前面』敢講的話，希望您『現在』仍然敢講！

推 bmcat: 看了一下,馬太>kingdom of heaven  馬可路加>kindom of God
→ bmcat: 看英文翻譯可能不準?說不定要看希臘原文吧?
推 pinjose: 原文很好查阿，一個是諸天的國，一個是神的國
一個是：βασιλε το   θεο
另一個是：βασιλε   τh   οlανh

您要不要告訴大家那個是那個？:))

→ pinjose: 春天把樂園也扯進來了，完全是糊塗讀經法，通通混作堆
嘻嘻，S『非常可愛』！我們要好好『寶愛』他！耶！

推 aun5780: Bmcat大 heavens 是複數喔
頂！很多人沒注意，然後就跳出來開砲！：P
※ 編輯: df31 (117.19.6.222), 08/29/2017 10:23:38
※ 編輯: df31 (117.19.6.222), 08/29/2017 10:31:49
→ pinjose: 上者神<2316>的國，下者天(複數)<3772>的國
→ pinjose: 老魚樓上sysop跟春天不同人喔
推 fyodor: 中文都不一樣了，回到希臘文或英文、日文丶韓文，結果不一
→ fyodor: 樣也不奇怪啊!舉monkey和man的例子當然不一樣,但如果舉God
→ fyodor: 和heavenly father呢?
本來就是。明明不一樣還說一樣，不是裝呆就是指鹿為馬。：））

推 fyodor: 我Google了一下，發現天國和神的國這個問題和救恩會不會
→ fyodor: 失去、 得救需不需要行為這些問題一樣，都是各說各話，爭
→ fyodor: 吵不休的問題。 前面兩個問題版上吵了幾年也沒有結果，希
→ fyodor: 望這個問題有哪位大大可以在這裡一錘定音。
難！您沒看台灣改革宗還寫了一本：寫給向地獄狂奔的亞米念主義者！：P

推 fyodor: 上次eno版主說我談態度丶不談真理，為了表示有點長進，我
→ fyodor: 也講一點東西 ，四個福音書裡邊，只有馬太福音稱天國，相
→ fyodor: 對應的事件和話語，在其餘三個福音書當中稱神的國。
頂！確實，天國（或諸天的國）只出現的馬太。如果仔細看上下文，都與基督的君王職分有關。這是馬太福音的一大特色。當然，連帶『天國』，也只有馬太福音使用『天國的福音』這個詞。

→ pinjose: http://www.luke54.org/view/1060/8271.html
→ pinjose: 早就一錘定鐘了，是願不願意查考而已
→ pinjose: 就像耶穌是神，父是神，但是講究不同
這些『細節』就看討論雙方的『功力』了。功力不足，往往看不見細微之處的差異。另一個是『父神（God the Father）』和『神與父（God and Father）』，因為和合本沒有察覺這個細節對於系統神學和釋經學的重要性，往往只翻譯為『父神』，導致中文的釋經書與英文的釋經書對同樣經文的同樣詞出現完全不同的解釋外，還忽視了這個詞表現的基督的神人二性的分別。

失之毫釐的結果，往往會嚇死人的！:))

推 fyodor: 談這些有爭議的東西難免爭吵， 但 也有機會讓我們更明白真
→ fyodor: 理，只是態度要謙卑， 當然謙卑我也剛在學習。
※ 編輯: df31 (117.19.6.222), 08/29/2017 12:41:46
推 fyodor: 謝謝pin大這一篇，我早就看過了，這是召會相信的說法。
推 pinjose: 沒錯，我們不去定罪那些分不清楚的，但是板上那兩位倒是
→ pinjose: 主動先來開砲
→ fyodor: 去Google一下有很多另一方的說法，我就不列舉了。
→ pinjose: 既然自己要用一副高大模樣定罪別人，別人自然也不客氣回
→ pinjose: 希望 f大不要又是檢討我們，不檢討始作俑者喔
推 theologe: 請參《耶穌對國度的教訓》（Geerharadus Vos，1903，中
→ theologe: 譯2010）
推 aun5780: 那個 嗯
→ aun5780: 1903的論文 現在應該不適合拿出來吧
→ aun5780: 我是不知道這本有多經典
推 theologe: 人文學經典跟自然科學不一樣，不是越新的一定更有價值
→ theologe: 喔
推 aun5780: 那是否證明這100年來沒人往他的方向發展
建議您不要浪費時間在『某君』身上。:))
※ 編輯: df31 (117.19.6.222), 08/29/2017 12:50:38
→ aun5780: 呵呵 好的
Eno都嘲笑『某君』專門『收割』。您看看，我們的討論他貢獻了多少？到討論的差不多的時候，他就一副專家+法官的架勢出來指點江山了。。。。何必花時間在他身上？:P
※ 編輯: df31 (117.19.6.222), 08/29/2017 12:54:22
→ aun5780: 一個持續被研究的內容跟方向
→ aun5780: 是不需要用100多年前的論文的
推 theologe: 那本書影響了許多後續的研究，是這個議題的經典之作。反
→ theologe: 正讀不讀是個人的選擇。
推 tfnop: 那麼解釋一下太19：23-24中耶穌混用天國與神國來講解得救
→ tfnop: 的問題，是否耶穌確實的要提出千年國度的問題？
推 aun5780: 推樓上
→ aun5780: 所以不是A文獻統一用天國
→ aun5780: B文獻統一用神的國
→ aun5780: 而是同一作者同一文獻
→ aun5780: 出現兩種國度
推 tfnop: 重點是說：耶穌在此有要講千年國度的追求嗎？
推 aun5780: 我覺得有
推 aun5780: 因為後面有提到"復興的時候"
推 tfnop: 我認為復興的時候是回應彼得的問題
推 aun5780: 我自己是覺得這前後是有關聯的
→ aun5780: 但如果真的前後是兩段獨立經文
→ aun5780: 也沒有問題
推 aun5780: 即使神的國 天國等都跟復興的時候無關
→ aun5780: 也確實有個復興的時候
推 tfnop: 所以回應財主的問題上，耶穌沒有做兩種比較性的賞賜，只有
→ tfnop: 一種賞賜：捨棄一切跟從主，將來得進天國
推 fyodor: 我同意tfnop大的看法，兩個詞是同一個概念，我看上面df大
→ fyodor: 的回應，似乎誤會了我的意思。
推 aun5780: 所以
→ aun5780: 沒有捨棄一切 變賣家產跟隨主的
→ aun5780: 就沒有得救了
→ aun5780: 你們會得到這樣的結論嗎
我是這麼認為：就如同耶穌的三重職分--君王，祭司，先知。從一個角度而言，都是指耶穌；在這個基礎上，你當然可以說，君王就是祭司，也就是先知。但是，從另一個角度而言，你卻不能把君王，祭司和先知混為一談，否則，聖經為什麼要使用【三個不同的稱呼】來稱呼耶穌。

同理，（諸）天國和神的國都是對於【一個】國度的不同稱呼，說兩者是一個，也不是不可以；（不過，要提出理由；如S的做法，則不可取。）但是，找出神的國和（諸）天的國的使用原則的不同，恐怕才是更有挑戰的。

不過，在地方召會的傳統中，會把神的國（諸）天國，和千年國視為三件不同的東西就是了。

(這三段應該回答了前面的問題。）

當然，各位應當注意各方面解經傳統的不同。大部分的教會現在的解經傳統都是歷史/文法，通常碰見這種細微的（不認可或無法解釋的）分別，都採取『大而化之』的態度；地方召會採用的是寓意/靈意/啟示為主的解經法，對於這種『細節』具有非常大的熱情。:P

嗯。。。。如果大家願意，也可以把『聖約神學』（強調新舊約的‘統合性’，所以傾向於把什麼都統合起來，視為一體）和『時代論』（強調新舊約的不同，喜歡把什麼東西都放在一起比較，找出差異性。）的張力也很自然的體現在這個題目的討論中。
※ 編輯: df31 (117.19.6.222), 08/29/2017 15:41:41
推 aun5780: 仔細看文脈 永生跟天國的條件是不同的
推 aun5780: 推原PO的說明
推 aun5780: 用聖約的一體性來看 得救跟獎賞還是有區分
→ aun5780: 用時代論來看 千年國對不同人 可以是獎賞 可以是處罰
→ aun5780: 聖約跟時代論在太19這邊 彼此不衝突
推 aun5780: tfnop大 您可以看看自己得到的兩個結論是相關的
→ aun5780: 1.您認為復興的時候是回應彼得捨棄一切的獎賞而說
→ aun5780: 2.您認為為主捨棄一切的獎賞 就是進天國
→ aun5780: 那麼在復興的時候得獎賞 是否就是天國呢
→ aun5780: 您可以思考您兩項結論的關聯
推 aun5780: (反過來 復興的時候沒有獎賞 是否為外邊的黑暗)
推 fyodor: 談到190３年那一本書，我想到一個同志提出的問題，他說現
→ fyodor: 在都21世紀了， 你們還拿幾千年前的聖經(可能他不清楚聖經
→ fyodor: 有多久歷史 )來批評同性戀，不會覺得過時了嗎?
推 fyodor: 其實經典是有可能不過時的
推 fyodor: 重點不在於聖經年代多久遠，而在於他說的對不對。
推 fyodor: 關於本文的問題，其實我比較想問的是：耶穌 到底說的是天
→ fyodor: 國還是神的國， 為什麼三個人的紀錄是神的國，另一個人的
→ fyodor: 紀錄是天國。
建議可以找找不同解經家的資料來做比較啊！：）

推 theologe: 「捨棄一切、變賣一切、跟隨主」，重點在「跟隨主」吧；
→ theologe: 前面兩個是修飾「跟隨主」。
→ theologe: 如果「跟隨主」是不重要的，那就要請問a所認為的「因信
→ theologe: 稱義」之「信」到底意味著什麼
推 theologe: 其實太19：25-26好像就是回答板上一堆聽到行為就喊做不
→ theologe: 到、法利賽人、律法主義、行為稱義的人XD
※ 編輯: df31 (117.19.6.222), 08/30/2017 01:10:33