[情報] SBS and Calvinism

[df31 (DF-31)]

Neo,

很多這類文章啊！

Here's The Point: Calvinists and Non-Calvinists in the SBC
https://founders.org/2016/05/03/heres-the-point-calvinists-and-non-calvinists-in-the-sbc/

How Calvinism Is Dividing The Southern Baptist Convention
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/06/how-calvinism-is-dividing-the-southern-baptist-convention_n_3399504.html

Are Southern Baptist Calvinists Just Misunderstood?
https://www.christianpost.com/news/southern-baptist-calvinist-misunderstood-richard-land-172140/
（剛好跟您說的相反餒！）

Southern Baptists, Arminians, and Calvinists
http://baptist21.com/blog-posts/2016/southern-baptists-arminians-calvinists/

Will Calvinism Split The Southern Baptist Convention?

http://sbctoday.wpengine.com/will-calvinism-split-the-southern-baptist-convention/

‘Non-Calvinist’ Southern Baptists issue statement of beliefs – by Staff

http://theaquilareport.com/non-calvinist-southern-baptists-issue-statement-of-beliefs-by-staff/

While Calvinists have been present in Southern Baptist life from its earliest
days and have made very important contributions to our history and theology,
【the majority of Southern Baptists do not embrace Calvinism. Even the minority
of Southern Baptists who have identified themselves as Calvinists generally
modify its teachings in order to mitigate certain unacceptable conclusions 】
(e.g., anti-missionism, hyper-Calvinism, double predestination, limited
atonement, etc.). The very fact that there is a plurality of views on
Calvinism designed to deal with these weaknesses (variously described as “
3-point,” “4-point,” “moderate,” etc.) would seem to call for
circumspection and humility with respect to the system and to those who
disagree with it. For the most part, Southern Baptists have been glad to
relegate disagreements over Calvinism to secondary status along with other
important but “non-essential” theological matters. The Southern Baptist
majority has fellowshipped happily with its Calvinist brethren while kindly
resisting Calvinism itself. And, to their credit, most Southern Baptist
Calvinists have not demanded the adoption of their view as the standard. We
would be fine if this consensus continued, but some New Calvinists seem to be
pushing for a radical alteration of this long-standing arrangement.


推 neohippie: 美南現在迦爾文是大宗，幾乎沒有人自稱是阿民念的       11/14 22:38
→ neohippie: 有阿民念頃向的應該會離開美南吧                       11/14 22:39
→ neohippie: 以前Billy Grahm影響力很強的時代比較頃阿民念          11/14 22:43
→ neohippie: 這個世代的領導者，Mohler、Moore、Piper 都是          11/14 22:44
→ neohippie: 頃向迦爾文                                           11/14 22:44
推 neohippie: https://goo.gl/8k4QcZ (美國的新迦爾文主義近代發展)   11/14
22:50

這裡有一篇The Calvinism Advisory Committee所撰寫的《TRUTH, TRUST, and TESTIMONY in a TIME of TENSION》。SBC Convention建議大家看的。

http://www.sbclife.net/Articles/2013/06/sla5

【We must stand together in rejecting any form of hyper-Calvinism that denies
the mandate to present the offer of the Gospel to all sinners or that denies
the necessity of a human response to the Gospel that involves the human will. 】
Similarly, we must reject any form of Arminianism that elevates the human
will above the divine will or that denies that those who come to faith in
Christ are kept by the power of God. How do we know that these positions are
to be excluded from our midst? Each includes beliefs that directly deny what
The Baptist Faith and Message expressly affirms.

這裡講的很清楚，SBC要全力抵制極端加爾文主義（Hyper-Calvinism），而
John Piper是Hyper-Calvinism的主要代表人物。照您的講法，SBC現在整個
倒向了Hyper-Calvinism？但是，事實並不是這樣啊！是不是您的信息來源
有誤？

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 101.9.250.119
※ 文章網址: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Christianity/M.1510670189.A.B2B.html
※ 編輯: df31 (101.9.250.119), 11/14/2017 22:42:34
※ 編輯: df31 (101.9.250.119), 11/14/2017 23:03:44

→ sCHb68: 原來John Piper是Hyper-Calvinism？！
https://www.challies.com/articles/hyper-calvinism-a-brief-definition/

Hyper-Calvinism: A Brief Definition

【While most Calvinists hold to the five points of Calvinism as summarized by
the acronym TULIP, there are some who refer to themselves as six or
seven-point Calvinists. One person who is known to identify himself as a
seven-point Calvinist is John Piper.】 He does so half-jokingly but does so to
communicate a truth that the five points of Calvinism are not exhaustive in a
consideration of God’s sovereign saving grace. The Desiring God web site
says, “Piper isn’t seeking to add two more points, but is simply calling
attention to his belief in the traditional five points (total depravity,
unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and
perseverance of the saints) in a way that also points toward two additional ‘
Calvinistic’ truths that follow from them: double predestination and the
best-of-all-possible worlds.” Double predestination is widely considered the
sixth-point. It is simply the other side to predestination, that just as God
sovereignly chooses those whom He will save, in the same way he chooses those
whom He will not save. There are some Calvinists who reject this idea, saying
that God chooses His elect while everyone else makes their own choice to be
condemned. A six-point Calvinist though, believes that God chooses some for
salvation and some for perdition and that He does so not on the basis that
some people are better or worse than others, but simply through His sovereign
choice.

The seventh-point of Calvinism, at least according to John Piper (and I’m
uncertain whether others regard this as the seventh point) is the
best-of-all-possible worlds, which “means that God governs the course of
history so that, in the long run, His glory will be more fully displayed and
His people more fully satisfied than would have been the case in any other
world.” Yet even someone who is willing to extend Calvinism beyond the five
points is not “hyper.” A seven-point Calvinist is not a hyper-Calvinist.

衛敏斯特和老唐這條線是5點的，都已經讓人受不了。John Piper更厲害，『7點
加爾文主義（7-Point Calvinism）』。而Hyper1-Calvinism在北美強硬到，連
5點加爾文主義都受不了。

所以，neo提到他，有點讓我驚訝。

再補充：

 A hyper-Calvinist is one who:

1- Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR
2- Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR
3- Denies that the gospel makes any “offer” of Christ, salvation, or mercy to
the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and
universal), OR
4- Denies that there is such a thing as “common grace,” OR
5- Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect.

這五點在neo身上都看不到。。。。。。


※ 編輯: df31 (101.9.250.119), 11/14/2017 23:20:22
※ 編輯: df31 (101.9.250.119), 11/14/2017 23:22:20


http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2016/june/southern-baptists-pick-president-steve-gaines-j-d-greear.html

Evenly Split, Southern Baptists Pick President after Candidate Quits
J. D. Greear withdraws from unusually tight SBC election, making Steve Gaines
the next leader.
SARAH EEKHOFF ZYLSTRA JUNE 15, 2016 11:26 AM

A 2012 survey found that about equal numbers of SBC pastors identify their
congregations as Calvinist/Reformed (30%) or Arminian/Wesleyan (30%). More
than 60 percent of pastors were concerned about Calvinism’s influence on the
denomination.

2016SBC大會選主席的特別報導還使用2012的統計。基本上，30%的SBC牧師
認為自己是加爾文/改革宗，30%是亞米念/衛斯理。而高達60%的牧師擔心
加爾文主義對整個SBC的影響。

這裡說的跟Neo說的都不一樣。：《

※ 編輯: df31 (101.9.250.119), 11/14/2017 23:26:55


https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/03/russell-moore-southern-baptist-convention/519540/

Russell Moore and the Fight for the Soul of the Southern Baptist Convention
The backlash against the conservative evangelical leader reveals deep
tensions in his denomination.

Russell Moore, the head of the Southern Baptist Convention's political arm,
interviews then-presidential candidate Jeb Bush in August 2015 Mark Humphrey
/ AP

EMMA GREEN  MAR 14, 2017

On Monday, The Washington Post reported that Russell Moore—the leader of the
Southern Baptist Convention’s political arm—might lose his job. The
denomination’s executive committee had asked Moore for a private meeting to
discuss an unfolding controversy: More than 100 churches are considering
cutting off funding from the Convention, according to the Post, and the
influential Prestonwood Baptist Church in Texas announced in February that it
will temporarily withhold roughly $1 million from the Convention’s
cooperative mission programs. The executive committee has recently begun an
investigation into why these funds are being withheld.

這裡說道Russell Moore要被炒魷魚了。這篇文章引用一個牧師對他的評價：

“He has singlehandedly caused more division in Southern Baptist life than
what we’ve seen in the last 30 years.”

※ 編輯: df31 (101.9.250.119), 11/14/2017 23:30:04
※ 編輯: df31 (101.9.250.119), 11/14/2017 23:33:07

我估計我們台灣的基督教資訊被扭曲了。
※ 編輯: df31 (101.9.250.119), 11/14/2017 23:33:43
推 neohippie: 感謝回應
→ neohippie: 老漁您引Russell Moore要被炒魷魚是跟政治有關的事
→ neohippie: Russell Moore 公開在批評川普，所以美南有些人
→ neohippie: 要他下台。不過最後不了了之，Moore現在還是在。
→ neohippie: 最近的SBC大會他還主導一項爭議性議題
→ neohippie: 內部我不知道，外面看起來他蠻穩的
推 neohippie: 看poll的資料，好像我真的講錯了，阿民念的還蠻多的
推 neohippie: 我剛才找了一下，問卷原始資料有點不清楚
→ neohippie: 我只找得到十年前的舊資料: https://goo.gl/DPmXTx
→ neohippie: 十年前的資料，強烈支持五點迦爾文已經27%了
→ neohippie: 我有點搞不清楚，資料是說有 30%是阿民念
→ neohippie: 還是解讀者把非強烈5點迦爾文通通歸類阿民念。
→ neohippie: 說自己是迦爾文「頃向」的應該超過 30%了吧?
推 neohippie: 不過有些東西應該跟地理環境有關係，我基本上都是在
我看過一個統計，說亞米念60%。

→ neohippie: 美國南部，所以可能受SBTS的影響比較大
→ neohippie: 西岸那邊可能比較多阿民念的吧
推 neohippie: ....................................
→ neohippie: 澄清一下，我沒在宣稱說美南倒向 hyper-Calvinism
→ neohippie: 只能說是偏迦爾文。
推 neohippie: 我找到那個圖了: https://goo.gl/fKLhWS
→ neohippie: 然後Steve Gains確實不是迦爾文派的...
※ 編輯: df31 (101.9.250.119), 11/15/2017 07:46:06
推 bettis: 52% Strongly disagree ..你是怎麼解讀成偏加爾文的？
→ theologe: neo常常這樣阿，不ey
→ theologe: local autonomy真的是關鍵，不只是事務性的部分而已；
→ theologe: neo真的太不認識浸會精神了。
不咬人會死哦！
※ 編輯: df31 (101.9.250.119), 11/15/2017 09:55:08
→ sCHb68: 據我觀察，三尺喜歡貶低別人提升自己的優越感。
→ sCHb68: 這是他生命中的偶像，應該每天攻克己身的對付。
推 bettis: 一群人不就事論事真可笑
→ sCHb68: ↑您這句話似乎也不是在就事論事欸..
推 bettis: 歡迎你對號入座
推 bettis: 對什麼樣的人，就用適合他的方式對應？
→ bettis: 話說你們搞懂什麼是gateway了嗎？
→ sCHb68: 你也開始雙重標準了喔，好的不學學三尺。
推 bettis: 哪裡雙重標準？請明示
推 bettis: 我可沒像某人（複數）誣賴別人是分身
推 bettis: 都已經提關鍵字了還硬要丟自己的臉更是一絕
→ sCHb68: 人家都走了還在抱怨。
推 bettis: 某人（複數）是沒看懂嗎？
推 neohippie: SBTS的領導者是迦爾文主義的，我上面就有寫阿
→ neohippie: 旗艦神學院是迦爾文主導
→ neohippie: 不過資料看起來兩派是平手
→ neohippie: bettis: 其實兩派大約都是 30% 兩邊圖表要對照
→ neohippie: 不能只看一邊下定論
→ neohippie: anyways, 我講錯，我承認
→ neohippie: 有學到新東西是好事
推 bettis: 推Neo的態度