Re: [情報] 艦娘小學堂 － 齊柏林伯爵號航空母艦

[supa64 (淳樸商人)]

※ 引述《Archerfish (Af)》之銘言：
: : 3:俾斯麥號的確是自沉.............照英國海軍可悲的火藥事實上要打穿俾斯麥只有16.
: : ....(當時14吋就算平面水平射沒辦法).2方面是卑斯麥的水面設計本身沿襲了ww1的浴缸
: : 設計.讓妳上面打癱了還是可以讓妳回家(所以看資料可以發現被圍爐同時實際上砲塔都
: : 被打掉了但是就是沒辦法打沉).
: : 推 Archerfish: 英國砲穿俾斯麥無壓力...                             05/28 22:45
: 後來想想我這句話大概會引起誤會....
: 我想表達的是在小麥最後海戰那種距離,英國炮要穿透主裝並沒有問題
: 實際上在俾斯麥殘骸的主裝上就有四個穿孔
: 小麥的主裝才320還是垂直佈置
: 而即使是相對差勁的喬五14吋在九千米都有快400的垂直穿深
: 不過如果把擊穿定義為擊穿主裝＋穹甲進入核心艙
: 則很可能並未發生 兩者結合的防護力還是剛剛的
: 主裝上著彈數少則反應了當時較近的距離及俾斯麥浸水而降低了乾舷
: 多數砲彈打在上層建築的狀況

用時間表你大概會搞懂你的問題在哪

27 May 1941 / 0847
Rodney’s two forward 16” (40.6 cm) turrets opened fire, joined shortly
after by the main guns of King George V. The distance was 21,870 yards
(20,000 m).
(第1次接戰距離.羅德尼優先開火)


27 May 1941 / 0849
Bismarck opened fire with her 15” (38 cm) forward main turrets. Lütjens
ordered that fire be concentrated first against Rodney and then King George
V, but the battleship’s after turrets could not be brought to bear on the
targets. Lindemann could turn his ship northward towards the enemy only by
engaging his port engine. The adversaries were closing at a combined speed of
25 knots and range quickly fell to 20,000 yards (18,288 m). One shell from
Bismarck’s second salvo landed a mere 60’ from the bridge of HMS Rodney
showering the decks with seawater.

At first, Rodney’s 16” (40.6 cm) guns caused extensive damage to itself.
The concussion of the powerful guns prompted water pipes to burst, cast-iron
fittings and beams to crack and tile decking to shatter. Hundreds of water
leaks sprang up, bolts and rivets popped loose, furniture overturned, lockers
and wires were torn loose, light bulbs and ceramic toilets were smashed, and
urinals were blown off bulkheads.

The guns on King George V suffered from the same issues that plagued Prince
of Wales on the morning of 24 May. At one point, A turret ceased firing for
30 minutes due to a mechanical malfunction – all four guns in the turret
were therefore out of action. Y turret was out of action for several minutes.
In addition, individual guns were inoperative when a shell rammer failed,
flash doors jammed or a shell hoist seized up. Parts fractured and others
were found to be missing altogether. Breech mechanisms jammed and a cordite
bag failed to explode, putting its gun out of action for half an hour.

(OK.我們可以知道KGV又發生神麼問題了)

27 May 1941 / 0913
Bismarck’s aft director was destroyed by a 14” (35.6 cm) shell from HMS
King George V. Therefore, C and D turrets proceeded under local control to
fire at Rodney. At the same time, Rodney fired six torpedoes against Bismarck
with no hits.

(此時如果有看作戰航跡圖.就會發現接戰距離開始慢慢縮短.此時距離大約1萬碼左右...)


27 May 1941 / 0931
Bismarck’s C turret fired its last salvo. The doomed battleship’s main guns
were out of action. A number of secondary guns were still in action, but not
for long. The Bismarck had lost her fighting capability.

Rodney closed in on the German battleship. From distances between 2,730 yards
(2,500 m) and 4,370 yards (4,000 m), she continued to fire at the Bismarck
with all nine 16” (40.6 cm) guns.

(我們看到的水平裝甲撕裂傷怎麼來的?就是這距離........)


從戰鬥的接戰位置以及航跡來看.是慢慢拉近.但是只有將上部戰鬥部打毀.船體本身.....

: : 透過自己炸掉船底鍋爐發動機一帶來達成大量進水.這樣的話19分鐘的確是可以快速進水
: : (畢竟這玩意=A-10是各裝甲澡盆.不透過炸底進水是沉不了............)
: 在俾斯麥炸船底的時間段,同時也有英軍的魚雷命中
: 兩者都會造成進水,應該無法認定哪一個單一因素造成翻沉的結果
: 另外個人覺得小麥的防護設計不太夠格稱為裝甲澡盆...
: 同時期各國採用裝甲盒設計的新戰艦對於水下彈防護的考慮都更為周到
: 即使是喬五這個便宜缺陷貨 主裝在水下的延伸長度也較多
: 裝甲盒設計也有利於儲備浮力（老美那些斷頭巡洋


27 May 1941 / 1000
The Bismarck was a floating wreck with decks and superstructure destroyed,
fires raging throughout the ship and hundreds of casualties scattered
throughout. According to survivors, the horror of seeing wounded and dying
friends and comrades amongst mutilated body parts could not be described with
words. Rodney had fired 380 16” (40.6 cm) shells and 716 6” (15.2 cm)
shells at her. King George V fired 339 rounds of 14” (35.6 cm) and 660
rounds of 5.5” (14 cm) ammunition. Norfolk and Sheffield had pumped 780
rounds of 8” (20.3 cm) shells at her. Shortly after 1000, Norfolk launched
four torpedoes from around 3,940 yards (3,600 m), one possibly hitting the
starboard side.
Bismarck’s first officer, Fregattenkapitän Hans Oels, made his way to
Section XIII on the battery deck where he ordered his sailors to take care of
themselves. ‘Comrades, we can no longer fire our guns and anyway we have no
more ammunition. Our hour has come. We must abandon ship. She will be
scuttled. All hands to the upper deck.’

In the engine room, Kapitänleutnant (Ing.) Junack assumed command. He
ordered all bulkhead doors to the shaft alleys opened and nine minute fuses
set for the scuttling charges. ‘Prepare ship for scuttling!’ Junack then
ordered his men up to the main deck.

Then came the order: ‘Abandon ship! Ship is to be sunk!’ Elsewhere,
survivors also recalled hearing, ‘Clear ship for scuttling. Apply explosive
charges.’ Those who heard the abandon ship order gathered in small groups,
hurled lifeboats off the upper deck into the ocean and then jumped off the
quarterdeck.

此時已經開始做這動作了.而魚雷發射的時間


27 May 1941 / 1020
On the Bismarck, men who survived the fusillade began to make their way off
the ship. Awaiting them was the oil-covered waters of the North Atlantic, the
final refuge for Bismarck’s crew. As survivors leapt overboard, some were
thrown against the ship’s side and perished. Others hit the water only to be
killed when hitting the bilge keel or a jagged torpedo blister that was
lurking beneath the surface. Scuttling charges had been set and Fregattenkapit
än Hans Oels made his way through the ship instructing those he found to
jump over the side. Watertight doors, seacocks and flooding valves were
opened as Bismarck was prepared for scuttling. In Section XIII of the battery
deck, Oels discovered around 300 men surging toward the ladders. He screamed
at them to maintain order, but a huge explosion ripped through the crowd
killing many including Oels.

以及

27 May 1941 / 1036
Dorsetshire circled the Bismarck and launched a third torpedo from a distance
of 2,400 yards (2,200 m) hitting the port side.

如果真要照理論值.維大力其實會更好(阿對啦......不過我們都知道的.遇上了垂直....)

實戰上真正效果顯著的反而是那個財大氣粗........

: : → supa64: 會說這句的大概就如我在糟糕島+戰史板打臉的1段話          05/28 22:46
: : → supa64: "英國海軍到2戰快結束才發現自己的15吋砲符合規定的只有    05/28 22:47
: : → supa64: 30-40%.剩下的幾乎是火藥問題的劣質品"(更不要說那常常會   05/28 22:47
: : → supa64: 射擊出問題的14-16..............                         05/28 22:48
: 去k島搜尋了一下
: 可以請教下15吋炮彈品質問題的出處報告名稱嗎？  願聞其詳...


http://fenrisulfr.org/wows/pixmicat.php?res=190

可憐的軍武版: "僅僅是因為他們砲彈裝藥的糟糕品質才從災難中拯救了我們 (9sot/v.U
14/12/15 11:21)

可憐的軍武版: 另外根據持續被使用至1944年的砲彈測試系統規定如果一批砲彈中有70%
有毛病還有一半可能被下發 (9sot/v.U 14/12/15 11:22)

可憐的軍武版: 事實上，無法通過這一寬鬆標準的炮彈仍然有可能下發給海軍
 (9sot/v.U 14/12/15 11:22)

可憐的軍武版: 後來英國軍需處分析出會有 30－70% 的砲彈並無法通過英國海軍部標準
的穿甲測試 (9sot/v.U 14/12/15 11:23)


喔對了.後面補上1各你忽略的問題.關於裝甲以及砲彈落下的部分.實際上你有1點忽略了.


http://www.schlachtschiff.com/kriegsmarine/schlachtschiff_bismarck/techn
ik/panzerung.html

通常火砲射擊的時候.砲彈落下的角度並不會90度垂直下來.而是有1定的傾斜角.然後再考
慮了諸多部分(大氣濕度.大氣壓力.風向.對方相對位置等ETC)來貫穿.那麼.既然主裝甲帶
320.有沒有想過.當時接戰距離2萬1為何慢慢逼近?有1場關鍵的戰鬥.大概給了英國1場重
要的提醒.不妨猜看看是哪艘船的戰鬥給了英國不得不一定要優先打到船沉為止.


--
淳樸的商人絕對的新人.不會做不法勾當.絕對的淳樸踏實

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 118.160.24.156
※ 文章網址: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/KanColle/M.1432914472.A.933.html
推 Archerfish: 我有翻到那篇k島文，還是希望能有原出處...
→ Archerfish: 比較少看到這說法希望能詳細了解下
→ supa64: 原出處很簡單.
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A5%E5%BE%B7%E5%85%B0%E6%B5%B7%E6%88%98


傑利科於1908－1910年間任第三海軍大臣已知悉相關砲彈表現不良的議題，並在其命令下
開始了新砲彈的設計作業。然而，在他之後這工作並沒有被持續下去，並且新的砲彈也沒
有被完整的測試過。在戰鬥後一位瑞典海軍軍官於雄獅號的歡迎派對上，貝蒂很快發現了
這個問題。對方曾經拜訪過柏林，在那裡德國海軍曾經嘲笑英國的砲彈是如何無力對抗德
國船隻的裝甲。此問題於多格邊海戰後也一度被重視過，但並沒有採取任何實際的行動。
希佩爾後來評論道：「僅僅是因為他們砲彈裝藥的糟糕品質才從災難中拯救了我們」。


Dreyer提督於該次戰鬥後，根據他所用以指揮的英國旗艦鐵公爵號寫到：若使用後來才引
入的高效砲彈，推論將可以多擊沈六艘德國主力艦。此一數字是基於在戰鬥中實際被確認
的擊中數來推斷。[8] 另外根據持續被使用至1944年的砲彈測試系統規定如果一批砲彈中
有70%有毛病還有一半可能被下發。事實上，無法通過這一寬鬆標準的炮彈仍然有可能下
發給海軍。後來英國軍需處分析出會有 30－70% 的砲彈並無法通過英國海軍部標準的穿
甲測試。[9]

實際上這已經是ww1以來的老問題(老話.天祐女皇)
※ 編輯: supa64 (118.160.24.156), 05/29/2015 23:55:45
→ supa64: 所以我從NF時代1路嘲笑英國火砲.其來有自......
→ WiLLSTW: 突然覺得義大利的彈藥品質不好也不是什麼大事.....
推 lettea: 讓英國決定要確保擊沉嗎…
→ lettea: 我猜是日德蘭的塞德利茨號或是沙恩？
→ supa64: WW2的時候.雖然WW1就得到教訓就是了
推 lettea: 二戰的話我就只想到沙恩了…
推 lettea: 沒能在挪威收掉他們造成日後的光榮號被擊沉外加一票的破
→ lettea: 襲
→ supa64: 不會.其實還有一艘最早被沉掉的
→ supa64: 那艘的代稱叫做PS