Re: [心得] 生酮飲食雜想 - 集中式生酮飲食

[dkz321 (Dkz321)]

由於原文實在太長，因此就不貼原文了。

你提到的第一篇論文:Is advice for breakfast consumption justified? Results from
 a short-term dietary
and metabolic experiment in young healthy men. (Martin et al.,2000)

文章實際上要說的是，
早餐攝取高熱量與低熱量飲食的比較，結果發現低熱量飲食比較好，
而論文的設計沒有用低熱量飲食vs完全不吃。
A high glycaemic response was observed in the morning after the high-energy br
eakfast period, while there was a peak of free fatty acids after the low-energ
y breakfast. The high-energy breakfast induced a strong inhibition of fat oxid
ation throughout the day. Although long-term adaptation to a high-energy break
fast cannot be excluded, the high-energy breakfast in this study did not appea
r to be favourable to health. Our results do not support the current advice to
 consume more energy at breakfast.

第二篇提到的論文: Breakfast, blood glucose, and cognition.(Benton D, & Parker
PY,1998)
Abstract提到：早餐禁食會讓記憶力和認知能力下降，而喝含葡萄糖補充品可逆轉此現象
morning fasting was found to adversely affect the ability to recall a word lis
t and a story read aloud, as well as recall items while counting backwards，
the decline in performance associated with not eating breakfast was reversed b
y the consumption of a glucose-supplemented drink

第三篇提到的論文：Breakfast reduces declines in attention and memory over the
morning in
schoolchildren.(Wesnes KA et al., 2003)
這篇更讓我笑出來，論文標題本來就已經在談：幫助減緩注意力和記憶力下降的早餐
所以不用看內文就已經知道這article不是在論述不吃早餐能提升認知能力
不過我還是看了內文，文中提到：
只喝葡萄糖飲料而完全不吃早餐，會讓注意力和記憶力下降，
不過吃麥片則能維持這方面的認知能力。
The glucose drink and No breakfast conditions were followed by declines in att
ention and memory, but the declines were significantly reduced in the two cere
al conditions. This study provides objective evidence that a typical breakfast
 of cereal rich in complex carbohydrates can help maintain mental performance
over the morning.

第四篇提到的論文：The effect of a lowcarbohydrate diet on performance, hormona
l and metabolic responses to a 30-s bout of supramaximal exercise.
本論文提到：
1.低碳飲食對於無氧運動的表現有害，因為會減少肌肉內的肝糖儲存以及降低葡萄糖分解
作用
2.在運動後三天內休息時減少碳水化合物攝取會增加交感神經作用（個人解讀，本文沒提
到增加交感神經作用對運動表現會怎麼樣，無法以此來解讀增加交感神經作用就能提升運
動表現，其實個人認為，過高的交感神經作用對人體其實是有害的，例如血壓升高，注意
力不集中等等）
(1) a L-CHO diet is detrimental to anaerobic work capacity, possibly because o
f a reduced muscle glycogen store and decreased rate of glycolysis; (2) reduce
d carbohydrate intake for 3 days enhances activity of the sympathoadrenal syst
em at rest and after exercise.

第五篇提到的論文：Relative effects of glycogen depletion and previous exercise
 on muscle force and endurance capacity
由於圖書館沒買到相關期刊，無法閱讀全文，
只能看研究設計前面的部分
文中提到：
運動前完全不攝取碳水化合物，或過量的攝取碳水化合物，都可能會讓肌肉持久力下降
Endurance capacity of human vastus lateralis muscles was observed 24 h after h
ard exercise followed by either a carbohydrate-restricted or a carbohydrate-lo
aded diet (depletion and repletion conditions). In a control condition the sub
jects did no previous exercise and ate their normal diet. Each of these condit
ions was followed by an experimental protocol in which the five male subjects
made a series of alternating 25-s static contractions of each leg at 50% maxim
al voluntary contraction until one leg failed to achieve the required force (T
lim). Glycogen concentration before the experimental protocol in both legs was
 significantly lower in the depletion than in the repletion condition. Muscle
lactate and creatine phosphate concentrations were within normal limits before
 the static contractions. The number of contractions the repleted (12.7 +/- 2.
2) and depleted (10.3 +/- 1.5) legs could sustain before Tlim were not differe
nt from each other, but both were 35% (P less than 0.05) fewer than the contro
l (17.6 +/- 3.0).
歡迎各位幫忙補充這paper的內容

第六篇提到的論文：Interactions of cortisol, testosterone, and resistance train
ing: influence of circadian rhythms.
嗯，的確沒錯，大部分人傍晚時訓練的狀況其實較好

第七篇：Changing concepts on the control of growth hormone secretion in man.
這篇完全沒提到“為什麼吃高GI碳水（化合物）”
整篇Article都在論述生長激素(Growth hormone)，標題早就一目了然告訴讀者這篇不是
在講高低GI飲食

第八篇：Intracellular mechanisms underlying increases in glucose uptake in res
ponse to insulin or exercise in skeletal muscle.
的確沒錯，運動能增加Insulin hypersensitivity，能有效的幫助降血糖

本文沒有要引戰的意思，
我起初看到你po的文，想說很有心貼出這麼多論文標題，就打算每篇找出來確認後真實性
後再佐證你的看法，
沒想到事與願違。

本篇打臉文重點：
沒證據顯示完全不吃早餐、訓練前完全低碳飲食、高GI食物能有效減脂增肌

當然，沒證據顯示不代表一定不行，但仍歡迎提供相應的證據出來供大家參考及討論

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推 OnceAFreak: 推   謝謝討鞭  這些都是書上的reference
→ OnceAFreak: 我沒有全PO  我會再檢視書裡的內容
推 OnceAFreak: 早餐的話 是事實 生理週期賀爾蒙變化 就有足夠解釋
→ OnceAFreak: 皮質醇早上會最高峰 此時吃高碳早餐 造成胰島素
→ OnceAFreak: 和高皮質醇的combo作用 肯定會加快脂肪堆積
推 popstarkirby: 這種飲食難在維持..外食一下就破功了
→ OnceAFreak: 我是提倡不吃 '高碳'早餐或不吃或少量
→ OnceAFreak: 不吃早餐本質是希望搭配12~14小時的斷食
→ OnceAFreak: 並允許少量的MCT油和蛋白補充
→ OnceAFreak: 我發現有些論文你略過 然後說'沒證據' 也太武斷
→ OnceAFreak: 除了早餐那邊還要再研究 其餘原文我再補充了
推 w1920385: 這篇專業打臉，讚。
推 w1920385: 作者寫的limitation之前的原po都跳過還直接亂下結論...
推 dakkk: 不吃早餐是因為o大要8：16斷食
→ dakkk: 不過訓練前不吃碳水 我的確有點懷疑
→ dkz321: 我每篇article都有提出解說，沒有略過哪一篇直接說沒證據
→ dkz321: 。學理上: cortisol 能lipolysis (相關article 請尋 Effec
→ dkz321: ts of cortisol on lipolysis and regional interstitial
→ dkz321:  glycerol levels in humans. [Djurrhuus CB 2002]),而ins
→ dkz321: ulin的確能lipogenesis沒錯，兩者可互相抵消作用而非加成
→ dkz321: 作用，不明白你提出的觀點的基礎為何。高碳飲食本來就會造
→ dkz321: 成lipogenesis，這是學界公認。但早餐斷食能否有效增肌你
→ dkz321: 沒有提出相關證據
推 ppininder: 給推，D大，所以還是建議訓練前補充少量碳水吧?
推 OnceAFreak: 適當的cortisol的確能燃脂我也有提 他確實是catabolic
→ OnceAFreak:  hormone
→ OnceAFreak: 但不代表他能真的抵銷胰島素 事實上 high cortisol=hi
→ OnceAFreak: gher insulin resistance
→ OnceAFreak: http://body.io/breakfast-important-domino-day/ 而
→ OnceAFreak: 跳早餐的目的是減脂  非增肌
→ OnceAFreak: 上篇文只說跳早餐幫助'減脂'
→ OnceAFreak: Low carb Diet induced changes in sympatho-adrenal
→ OnceAFreak: activity
→ OnceAFreak: during submaximal exercise in relation to substrat
→ OnceAFreak: e utilization in man.你漏這篇
推 xorz: 感覺好像進到肌肉沙灘英文版了!不過認真推
→ dkz321: 你po的那個網站沒提到cortisol與insulin會"combo"加成lipo
→ dkz321: genesis
→ dkz321: 也沒提到high cortisol= insulin resistance
→ dkz321: 且若真的insulin  resistance, insulin難以作用，不就難以
→ dkz321: 進行您所謂的combo lipogenesis？ 這有矛盾喔
→ OnceAFreak: ...你應該知道 insulin resistance代表身體會分泌更多
→ OnceAFreak: 胰島素吧。。 網站有說 higher fat storage
→ dkz321: 再者，你原文沒提到作者，讓我以為那是你提到的內容而非
→ dkz321: 論文標題，因此並無故意略過。
→ dkz321: 且你給出的標題我搜不到article, 歡迎放上鏈接
→ OnceAFreak: 難以作用  血糖量不變 不就要更多胰島素...
→ dkz321: insulin resistance造成insulin很高
→ dkz321: 不等於就能讓越多醣類合成脂肪啊
→ dkz321: 好比今天港口封了，船隻無法入港卸貨，海上停滿了船隻，
→ dkz321: 但不代表貨物都能卸下啊
→ OnceAFreak: ..我想您再仔細看那篇文   Diet induced changes in s
→ OnceAFreak: ympatho-adrenal activity during submaximal exercis
→ OnceAFreak: e in relation to substrate utilization in man.
→ OnceAFreak: 作者我有標 Jansson et al.
→ OnceAFreak: high cortisol& insulin確實讓港口 '擴大'了
→ OnceAFreak: insulin解除封條
→ OnceAFreak: higher insulin=higher chance=higher possible fat g
→ OnceAFreak: ain
→ dkz321: 該文在說：低碳飲食能減脂。 這已經是學界公認的了沒錯。
→ dkz321: 但我沒看到早餐完全禁食，只吃你提到的那點食物能健康的
→ dkz321: 減脂。 只討論單純減脂的話很簡單，不止早餐，三餐不吃都
→ dkz321: 能減脂，但不健康而已
推 pictur23: 合理的懷疑 慢慢的嘗試
→ dkz321: 你概念已經混淆了，resistance 亦即身體無法利用胰島素造
→ dkz321: 成胰島素升高，而胰島素升高但無法被利用去進行lipogenesi
→ OnceAFreak: 特別說早餐 是因為那是燃脂黃金期  如果不吃碳的話  W
→ OnceAFreak: hen food is ingested at this time, and more notabl
→ OnceAFreak: y when carbs are a part of this meal, insulin rise
→ OnceAFreak: s and fat-burning shuts down. Insulin and cortisol
→ OnceAFreak:  are antagonistic hormones and when simultaneously
→ OnceAFreak:  elevated they trigger the fat-storing enzyme lipo
→ OnceAFreak: protein lipase to increase while attenuating the e
→ OnceAFreak: ffect of fat-freeing hormone-sensitive lipase[6-8]
→ OnceAFreak: . Not only does this combination therefore dampen
→ OnceAFreak: fat-burning, but it signals the body tostoreat.
→ OnceAFreak: 網站段落
→ OnceAFreak: 如果早餐禁食無法健康減脂  就不會那麼多IF倡導者了
→ OnceAFreak: 把名詞釐清好了 high cortisol=more insulin resistan
推 yuchen092282: 佩服原po一篇一篇paper查證… 醫學相關科系覺得慚愧
→ yuchen092282: QQ
推 DLCSEA: 建議引用論文不要光憑書上怎麼說，而是直接找原論文來看，
→ DLCSEA: 有些作者若不夠嚴謹，很容易斷章取義，為引用而引用，如果
→ DLCSEA: 光看書上引用的論點，很可能會搞錯。
推 DLCSEA: 不過話是這麼說，很多人撰寫論文參考某本書上內容，該內容
→ DLCSEA: 引用哪篇paper往往撰寫論文時就直接照書上引用(而非引用
→ DLCSEA: 該書)，卻往往沒去找原文來看(省時間)，若口試遇到認真的
→ DLCSEA: 教授(或幫教授看的研究生XD)去一篇篇找出引用的論文看(通
→ DLCSEA: 常是該領域專長才會有sense，覺得好像不太合理)，常常會出
→ DLCSEA: 問題。
推 Yuwuen: 推推
推 daredwolf: 推原po與原原po, 專業推
推 Jared9527: 推！如果要引用論文講一些小觀念的話，最好稍微看過論
→ Jared9527: 文，至少不要犯一些簡單的錯。
→ Jared9527: 如果引用的論文是你寫文章的主軸的話，建議整篇都閱讀
→ Jared9527: 。
→ Jared9527: 引用論文 研究是一種代表證據力很大的說詞，但這樣有力
→ Jared9527: 量的說詞是要付出相對大的責任的。
→ Jared9527: 加油！
→ Jared9527: 不過不管怎樣，我在兩位的討論中受益良多
推 xinyuxiao: 醫學苦手表示可以寫一篇常人版的嗎QQ
推 sputniky: 好強……