Knuckle Ball

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推 rocf117: 蝴蝶球投手 指力好像有限制 請高手解答                   05/31 10:44
→ rocf117: 投太多 指力撐不下去                                    05/31 10:45

蝴蝶球當然還是有限制的如果沒有投球數限制,2012年Dickey
讓他一直上就好了,對吧?2012年先發33場,平均投球數約101球

我本來以為球速越慢的蝴蝶球,球數限制越少,但查Wakefield的平均用球數,
其實還少一點

另外,前陣子FG有一篇S. Wright談蝴蝶球的文章

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/wrights-stuff-talking-knuckleballs-w
ith-a-knuckleballer/

On his knuckleball: “I watched a lot of video of R.A. and Wakefield.
I just throw it. I just grip and it and rip it. For me, I think its
trying to stay under control. R.A. throws his harder, Wakefield threw
his slower. I feel like I’m right in the middle of them – I don’t
throw quite as hard as R.A. or quite as slow as Wakefield. We’re all
pretty similar, we just throw it at different speeds.”

On Dickey’s fast knuckleball: “The velocity definitely helps if
it’s moving. It gives it sharper break, usually it’s later, and
just the fact that it’s harder. If it’s thrown right it’s a tough
pitch to hit. If it’s thrown slow it’s a tough pitch to hit.
That’s just where he feels comfortable. It’s not that he’s
trying to throw it that hard, that’s just how it comes out, so
that’s how he’s comfortable pitching.”

On whether harder knuckleballs work better in certain parts of the zone,
 akin to a high-spin fastball located up: “I think as long as it’s
inconsistent in its movement, it will work. That’s the biggest key to
knuckleballs: you want to be able to throw for strikes, but you want
them to be inconsistent in the zone. You don’t want it to have
predictable movement. I think that’s where the hard knuckleball kind
of helps, because it can be a not-great knuckleball, but as long as
it’s inconsistent, then you can get away with it.”

On Wakefield’s three-quarters arm slot: “[Wakefield] still got pretty
on top of the ball. I feel like every knuckleballer that I’ve seen throw
is pretty much at the same type of arm slot. It’s a tough pitch to throw
 since you’re trying to throw with no spin so you’ve got to be behind
the ball. It’s tough to do, but I think everybody’s sort of at the same.”

Wakefield

On what makes a bad knuckleball: “Usually it’s rushing. I try to
overthrow. If I try to overthrow then it slips out and takes off.
That’s something I’ve been fighting my whole life, even when I was
a conventional pitcher.”

On old knuckleballs: “I’ve seen a little bit of [Phil] Niekro and some
Charlie Hough, it’s just that they’re real hard to find. They had video
and stuff back then, they just didn’t keep it like they do now. Everything
now is stored in a database and one click of the button you can have it.
I usually try not to watch too much video, actually, because I’m not trying
to mimic them. Sometimes I get caught up in trying to mimic how other
knuckleballers throw instead of going out and being who I am as a pitcher.”

On the evolution of the knuckleball: “I think it’s the same. It hasn’t
changed much at all. You’re still throwing the pitch with the same
intent – kill the spin. It’s not like curveballs and sliders where
people have different release points trying to change the shape. You
can talk about finger pressure and all that stuff, but when it comes
down to it, you’ve got to stay behind the ball and through the ball to
kill the spin. Especially because nowadays, with other pitches, everything
is taught to try and create spin. We’re trying to do the opposite. We’re
trying to not create spin at all. So I think over the years it’s kind of
been the same. I worked with Charlie Hough and he did it for 20-something
years, and he’s telling me pretty much the same stuff that Wakefield told
me.”

On varying finger pressure: “I don’t vary it much, and I don’t know many
who do. You can feel it when you throw it, off your fingers, which way it’s
going to go. But I can’t purposely do it.

“When you put too much pressure on the ball, you usually spike it, because
you hold onto it too long. When you don’t have enough pressure, it usually
stays up. That one gets hit harder. But there’s a number of things that can
happen. You can hold it too tight and still throw a good one.

“I’ve done both, certainly a lot when I was learning. I’ve had too much
pressure, I’ve had not enough pressure. It’s something that, it’s such a
feel pitch, that some days are different than others and you just try to find
it as fast as you can and when you do find it, you just try to keep it for
as long as you can and hope for the best.”


Wright有看過老蝴蝶Dickey的影片,也看過 Niekro跟C. Hough的,
老蝴蝶的KN球比較慢,Dickey的比較快,

老蝴蝶: 66   mile
Dickey: 75.9 mile
Wright: 74.7 mile

速度會幫助KN球位移更銳利,很難打,但老蝴蝶速度慢也是很難打,
看投手自己覺得怎麼投比較適合自己

蝴蝶球重要的是球位移越不可預測越好,球要亂飄但要進好球帶

bla bla bla 大致上意思是這樣吧,沒閒翻全部,有興趣自己看原文

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推 BrandonMai: 推
推 Absioute: 蝴蝶球投手是不是比較不會因年紀增長而讓球威下降
推 KOSHON: 投手靠球速、轉速和位移來壓制打者，蝴蝶球不靠球速和轉速
→ KOSHON: 而靠球的位移來迷惑打者，據說因此年紀不會影響球威
推 spko: 其實這點文章中有提到，大概說一下，正常來說投手投球
→ spko: 追求的是球速跟轉速，不管是直球、曲球、滑球或各種變化球
→ spko: 其實都是不同的轉速，直球轉速極快球掉落少、
→ spko: 變速指叉轉數少就會掉得比打者預期多，曲滑也就是不同方向轉
→ spko: 而不管球速還是轉數，肩臂肘腕的健康程度或力量都是重要因素
→ spko: 但蝴蝶球不同，蝴蝶球要求的是「讓球接近不轉」
→ spko: 需要的是絕對穩定的投球機制、從起動到出手，手掌都在球後面
→ spko: 比起肉體的「力」，更需要的是「動作的一致性」
→ spko: 所以蝴蝶球投手每場可以比較耐操、生涯比較長久
→ spko: 甚至是先發救援隨便怎麼放都可以 (老蝴蝶當過Closer XD)
推 Unleashed: 推
推 forgetta: 2003跟2004的ALCS血戰  老蝴蝶就可以在延長賽一直投
推 tortoise2006: 推
推 Orcish: