[新聞] 《索爾之子》導演衛報訪談聊新片《日暮》

[mysmalllamb (小羊)]

新聞網址：https://bit.ly/2E4IWDR

以下是英國衛報記者對《索爾之子》導演 Laszlo Nemes 的訪談文章，因為他的新片《日暮》Sunset即將在英國院線上映了。不知有沒有人去年影展期間就看過呢？我是非常期待的！電影看似有 Nemes一貫大頭跟拍淺景深的疑雲幢幢風格、有個和艾瑪華生一樣美但演技好十倍的女主角、更棒的是還有美好年代極盛期的布達佩斯（鷹眼與黑寡表示：）！
https://imgur.com/wxOs6Xg

《日暮》看來關於高度發展文明的極端與自毀，那 1913 年的背景和百餘年後的 2019 今日竟處處似曾相識。Nemes 就從他剛去追過的某部超英片談起，談到人們對世道確定性的迷戀、對人們道德完美如神的期待、甚至對網路知識的盲從與對獨立自主的放棄... 好像這一切都可以聯上《日暮》的劇情成為一場打片訪談？
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu0ibDrd2Bw

我不是個專業或業餘翻譯，以下就我所知的來粗翻一下，並附上報導的英文稿與中文翻譯平行參照，如有疏漏或謬誤還請不吝指正。以下開始正文與翻譯：


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Son of Saul's László Nemes: 'Our civilisation is preparing for its own destr
uction'
《索爾之子》導演拉斯洛奈梅施：「我們文明正準備自毀」

The director of the Auschwitz-set Oscar-winner senses dark times ahead – and
believes blockbusters are partly responsible. Is that why his second film, Sun
set, is so baffling?
這位拍奧許維茲題材拿了奧斯卡的導演聞到了暴雨將至、且認為商業大片恐要負點責任。
是否因此他的第二片《日暮》如此鬼影幢幢？

Catherine Shoard
Fri 10 May 2019 01.00 EDT



The day before we met, László Nemes went to see a superhero movie. He didn't
last long. "I found it unwatchable and false, boring and self-referential, a
world of ideal people who don't behave as humans but more like machines."
我們約見前一天，拉斯洛奈梅施才看了部超英片。他單刀直入：「我覺得看不下去，它虛
幻且無聊、都在自我指涉，充滿行為與其說像人不如說像機器的理想化角色。」

He smiles. It's tea-time in the Islington, north London branch of Caffè Nero
and Nemes gently explains that such films infantilise viewers in two ways. The
plots let them defer responsibility for the fate of the world to demigods; the
way they are shot - lots of signposting, everything carefully controlled -
offers a false sense of omniscience.
他笑笑。我們在北倫敦以斯靈頓一家Caffe Nero，奈梅施溫和地解釋這種電影如何在兩個
層面弱化觀眾。首先，劇情讓觀眾把面對世界命運的責任交給一群半神們；其次，它的拍
攝構成，包括一堆方向明顯的路標鏡頭、以及每件事都小心翼翼控制完美，在在給觀眾一
個虛假的無所不知感。

"I've been extremely saddened by the way cinema has narrowed its language an
d created an alphabet that's never been poorer," he says, sipping his water.
"Superhero movies take away mystery because there’s nothing in the shadows.
All is revealed. And that's not how our relationship to the world is, because, unfortunately, you can know only a fraction. So it gives a false impression
of our might."
「對於電影限縮自己語言、換來一組空前貧乏的表意系統，我深感憂傷。」他喝口水續道
「超級英雄電影把神秘剝除了，不留任何事物在陰影中，一切全昭然若揭。這並不是我們
與世界的關係，因為很遺憾地、你只能對世界掌握一點片段。如此，它給你一種我們有大
能的虛假印象。」

Genre fans must be terrible worriers, he continues; prisoners of "an extreme
state of anguish" soothed only by narrative certainty. “Superhero films let
people put away their fears. But this 'saving' is not very realistic. And if
you create only objective films that avoid big questions of life, then we just
create machines to eat popcorn.”
類型電影粉絲肯定是群絕望的憂慮者，他續道，已身陷「極度煎熬」只能靠敘事的確定感
來療癒。「超級英雄電影讓人們恐懼一掃而空，但這種［拯救］並不怎麼現實。當你只創
作這種客觀中立的電影逃避人生重要問題時，那我們只不過在創作爆米花機器罷了。」

Nemes is not going to make a superhero movie. He could if he wanted, though.
Right now, Nemes could make whatever he liked. Three years ago, his first film
won an Oscar, a Bafta, a Golden Globe, the director's prize at Cannes and
almost everything else in-between. An immersive account of life at Auschwitz
for a Jewish prisoner forced to work in the gas chambers, Son of Saul earned
awed acclaim for its gravity, ambition and formal virtuosity.
奈梅施並沒要拍部超英片，雖然如果他想他也可以，畢竟現在奈梅施可以創作他想創作的
。三年前，他處女座就得了個奧斯卡、Bafta、金球獎、坎城導演獎與其間的幾乎每個小
獎。作為一場身歷其境的奧許維茲猶太囚工的毒氣室工作記述，《索爾之子》以其實地的
重量、敘事的野心、以及形式的精湛獲得驚人好評。

The experience, he grins, "really created a sort of positive trauma. A
reference point that creates all kinds of expectations. So I’ve been trying
to cope with that." Hard partying and snowdrifts of coke? Nope. Nemes's
strategy seems to have been to create "trying to remain responsible and to
respect the audience".
「這個經驗」他微笑道「當真造成某種正向的創傷，成為個造成諸多期待的參考標準，我
也一直試著面對中。」面對派對和毒品的誘惑嗎？喔不，奈梅施要面對的看來是「試著保
持責任感、並尊重觀眾。」

And that means a follow-up just as demanding as his debut - albeit for
different reasons. Sunset puts us in the Austro-Hungarian empire on the edge
of anarchy in 1913. Our heroine is Irisz Leiter (Juli Jakab), who returns to
Budapest and the hat store once owned by her late parents. The world she meets
is confusing: does she really have a long-lost brother? Why are the new
proprietors of the shop so sinister? Is Irisz swept up in the insurrection or
is she somehow its engine?
這暗示著他將交出一部與首作一樣高標準的新片，即使原因不只如此。新片《日暮》帶我
們走進 1913 年時那處於無政府狀態邊緣的奧匈帝國。女主角名叫 Isisz Leiter (Juli
Jakab 飾演)，她回到布達佩斯、重返已故雙親曾經擁有的那間大帽店。但在她眼前的世
界疑雲重重：她是否還有個失蹤已久的哥哥？為什麼帽店新主人如此陰險冷峻？Irisz 是
被捲入一場風暴中還是不知不覺正造成一場風暴？

Sunset is a knotty and haunting fairytale. It shares Saul's distinct visuals:
camera either closely focused on its lead's face or following hard on their
heels at head-height. You get less information than they do. It's intentionally baffling, potentially frustrating.
《日暮》是個既傷腦筋又揮之不去的灰暗童話。它也有和《索爾之子》相似的獨特視覺手
法：攝影機不是近距聚焦主角的臉、就是緊跟她腳步看著她後頸。主角能掌握多少資訊，
觀眾也就掌握多少。這是種有意建立的疑雲重重，而且往往令人挫折。

"Sunset is really about our perception of the world," shrugs Nemes. "It's a
labyrinth. The audience has to accept confusion as part of the process - and
people don't like that! I have come to understand that it creates major
anxiety. But that is the challenge and the promise: to experience the world
through the eyes of someone who is not a god. Then you're not just a popcorn-
eating machine, you're someone for whom this experience can become personal
and subjective and meaningful."
「《日暮》當真是關於我們對世界的認知」，他聳聳肩道。「它是個迷宮，觀眾必須接受
茫然困惑為過程的一部分，而我知人們並不喜歡這樣！我了解這種做法造成了極大焦慮：
觀眾竟要以一個非神之人的有限雙眼去經驗這世界。如此你就不只是個吃爆米花的機器人
、而是能成為個真人，你的經驗才成為個人的、主觀的、有意義的。」

Nemes was born in Hungary in 1977, moved with his mother to Paris aged 12 and
read international relations at university before studying film-making in New
York. He worked as Hungarian filmmaker Béla Tarr's assistant before Saul and
Sunset, and now wants to make a movie in English. For the past six months he
has lived in London with his wife, a clinical psychologist at UCL. He loves
the layers of history here ("Budapest is a city of ruins"), the different
nationalities ("It creates a different vibration"), the easy access to 221b
Baker Street (he's a slightly unlikely Sherlock Holmes nut).
奈梅施於 1977 年生於匈牙利，12歲隨母移居巴黎，大學學國際關係後再赴紐約學電影。
他曾在匈牙利導演陶爾貝洛手下當助理、接著拍了《索爾之子》與《日暮》、現在還想來
拍部英語電影。過去六個月他與在 UCL當臨床心理師的妻子住在倫敦，他熱愛倫敦這兒的
歷史層次（「布達佩斯是個廢墟之城」）、這兒的多樣國族（「創造了不同的律動」）、
以及鄰近貝克街 221b（他看來倒不太像個福爾摩斯迷）。

I first encountered him on the film festival circuit back in 2015 and while fr
iendly, he was also guarded and wary. Today, he's lighter: relaxed, even play
ful. His English is halting and experimental; he speaks with much less severit
y than comes across on the page. Back then he was indignant about a rise of an
tisemitism in England. That he has since moved here is cheering – and curious
. "Well, I'm still really concerned," he says. "Anti-Jewish feelings are d
efinitely very alive and now coming from the left, and that’s rather puzzling
. I don't think people realise how pernicious that is.”
我第一次認識他是在 2015 的電影節場合，那時他雖友善、卻戒慎警惕。今天，他輕鬆多
了、也促狹多了。他的英語時常停頓也常在試驗、他的口語遠比書寫來得平易近人。當年
他對英格蘭反猶主義興起感到憤慨，而今他自己竟搬來倫敦既令人雀躍、也令人好奇。「
嗯，我仍然對此相當憂心，」他說道。「反猶情緒如今確實很旺盛，而且這回是來自左派
的，這實在是令人費解，我不認為人們有意識到這傷害有多大。」

Still, he says, at least it’s better than Paris. "That really hurts me. When
I moved to France from Hungary I was so relieved at no longer having to be sc
ared of intolerance. Then, such sentiments would have been ostracised or at le
ast repressed. Now, in many schools, teachers are scared of talking about the
Holocaust, as if there was some sort of competition for suffering." He blames
 "state TV propaganda that fed the population in the 80s and 90s. It united p
eople. And so now there’s a payoff."
不過，他仍認為至少這兒比巴黎好。「這點傷我很深。當年我從匈牙利搬到法國時我還如
釋重負、覺得再也不用為族群不寬容感到害怕了。在那時，至少這種不寬容情緒是會被摒
棄、或至少會被抑制的。而今，在許多學校裡連老師都害怕談起猶太大屠殺，彷彿這是某
種受害者競爭似地。」他歸咎於「國營電視在 1980s-90s灌輸大眾的政治宣傳，它們曾經
團結人們，但現在也產生代價了。」

He continues: "Antisemitism has always been a barometer to measure the moral
temperature of a civilisation, for almost mystical reasons. The Jew can go uns
een. They are hard to distinguish and so can be the threat coming from inside.
 Today, it's therefore very alarming. Almost like we’re now past a critical
point.”
他續道：「反猶主義一直都是個測量文明道德的溫度計，簡直像謎一般準確。猶太人可以
隱身社會中，他們外表很難分辨，因此可以成為一個社會內部的威脅。於是到今日這已成
了一個重大警訊，我們幾乎已要跨過那條紅線了。」

Sunset is more than a historical study. It is a warning that sophisticated
societies can combust. Actually, it's a prophecy; Nemes thinks it inevitable
that we will follow suit. Not because of the political tinderbox, but because
we can't stop fiddling with the matches. "I really have the feeling that a self
-assured civilisation such as ours is preparing our own destruction," he says.
"Even Europe at the beginning of the 20th century, this incredible whirlwind
of creativity and positivity, was already longing for its own demise.”
《日暮》這片不只是個歷史考察，它更意在警示文明高度發展的社會仍可能一夕火起。事
實上，它是個預言，奈梅施認為我們無可避免地會走上那毀滅公式。倒不是因為政治兇險
的火匣子本身，而是因為我們總是忍不住要去擦弄那火柴。「我認真覺得一個像我們這樣
過度自信的文明，總是在準備步向自我毀滅，」他說道。「即使是 20 世紀初的歐洲，當
時那不可思議的創造力與正向意識，彷彿都早已在渴望自身的殞落。」

I must look a bit downcast. What can he say, he grins. He's from Eastern
Europe, fatalism is in his blood, Kafka taught him that while humans struggle
to build meaningful things, they are also digging their own graves.
So: catastrophic self-sabotage is old news.
我一定看來很沮喪吧？他還能怎麼說呢，他只能咧嘴笑笑。他來自東歐，宿命論已深植血
肉中，卡夫卡早教過他當人們苦苦奮鬥建立有意義的事物時，他們也同時在挖掘自己的墳
墓。這樣看來，毀滅性的自我破壞早就不是新鮮事。

Nothing to get especially upset about. What has actually got Nemes fretful is,
it turns out, computers. They're making it much, much worse. "We take from
our brains so much power and give it to machines," he says. "It's unprecede
nted. Likewise the incredible amount of imagery we’re producing and the fact
so much is virtual. We are building a sort of narcissistic image of ourselves
through social media that means we perceive people as potential angels. There's
an increasing self-righteousness, and a great moral expectation on human beings
I don't think is realistic. Then there's a backlash when we realise wecan't
meet this ethical standard.
並沒那件事格外令人沮喪，但訪談下來發現，真正令奈梅施感到焦躁的，是電腦，電腦讓
這狀況每下愈況。「我們從腦中提取出如此多的力量、卻都轉頭交給了機器，」他說道。
「這是前所未見的。同樣地，我們所產製的驚人大量的影像、以及我們看見的真實，有很
大程度都是虛擬的。我們正在透過社群媒體打造某種充滿自戀的自我形象，而我們將人們
認知為潛在的天使們。一種自以為是的意識正在增長中，然而我認為對人們投以點過高的
道德期待並不切實際。而當我們意識到我們其實做不到那高道德標準時，那反作用力就來
了。」

"I would love to be wrong, but I really believe that democracy and the intern
et are not compatible. New technology channels so much of our darkness and we
are blind to it. And sometimes the accumulation and spreading of knowledge mea
ns people reach a new level of ignorance.”
「我真希望我是錯的，但我也當真相信民主與網際網路並不相容。新科技承載了如此多的
黑暗面，我們卻對它盲目。甚至有時知識的積累與傳播，反而意味著人們的忽視更上一層
樓。」

Nemes feels like a throwback. He engages in the kind of intense mental
pingpong I remember only from university. With his Little Prince notebook and
his 2am tousle, he could still pass for a student, even at 42, with a shelf
full of silverware. He also treads lightly and seems the real deal. I can't
remember the last time I talked to someone of my age with no visible smartphone.
奈梅施感覺像是個時光倒流的古人，他讓自己投入一種來回密集辯論的腦內乒乓，是個我
只在大學才有的印象。說到大學，看他拿小王子筆記本與一頭熬夜亂髮，他就算 42 了當
個學生也不違和，只是書架上擺滿獎盃而已。他步履輕盈看來真正像個箇中高手，另外跟
他談話眼前全不見手機，上次看到我這年齡的人這樣子已不知是何時了。

Recently, he says, he has found himself in situations in which communication
was impossible. Where he was speaking to people who couldn't think freely
because they had been enslaved by ideologies fed to them by the web. Who
believed themselves individuals while reciting mass rhetoric. "So much
aggression," he says, shaking his head. "For the first time since I left
Hungary I found this oppression of having to adapt my discourse to a sort of
well-received set of ideas. It's extraordinary that internet on a voluntary
basis creates a newform of totalitarianism. One that is much more dangerous
because people thinkthey are free.”
他說道，近來他發現自己常處於無法溝通的處境，常常遇上被餵養網路知識而服膺意識形
態無法自由思考的人們，他們總是自認獨立個人、卻重複吟誦著大眾修辭。「他們如此盛
氣凌人，」他搖搖頭說道。「自我童年離開匈牙利至今，第一次感受到這種壓抑感，彷彿
我必須將我的論述給轉化為一組廣受大眾歡迎的概念。令人歎為觀止的是，以自願使用為
基礎的網際網路竟創造了一種新的極權形式，這極權形式更加恐怖，因為人們還覺得自己
是自由的。」

He sighs. Identity politics trouble him for reasons that reach back to Saul.
"I've never been called a white man until recently," he says. "But now I'm a
white guy from eastern Europe who is a Jew. And so I should only speak about
such people.
他嘆了口氣，認同政治令他憂心良有以也，甚至還可回溯至《索爾之子》。「我過去從未
被稱過一聲白男，直到最近破功了，」他說道。「但我現在是個白男、來自東歐、還是個
猶太人，因此我就應該只說關於這些人們的事物。」

"This is fractioning humanity - and it's actually reverse racism. It works as
racism, but cloaks itself in the beautiful, beautiful dress of tolerance. And
that's extremely dangerous."
「這成為了一種片段化的人性，而這其實是種反向種族主義。它如種族主義一般運作，但
給自己包上一件以包容為名的極漂亮糖衣，而這真是超危險的。」



Sunset is released on 31 May; Nemes is giving Q&As after selected 35mm prev
iews.
英國5/31會上《日暮》、某些試映場奈梅施也會出席參與問答。

--
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※ 文章網址: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/movie/M.1557602710.A.E76.html
※ 編輯: mysmalllamb (1.171.169.55), 05/12/2019 04:03:18
推 yeh0216     : 推，謝謝翻譯
→ toyamaK52   : 所以這個兒子的媽媽 是娜塔莉波曼 還是女武神？
推 GSHARP      : 期待...
推 joey0602    : 推翻譯。但覺得不要對日暮期望太大…
我要求不太高啦，有美女美頸美帽美衣和美麗的布達佩斯，我就很滿意 :D
→ qpr322      : 台灣記得是前景的，不知道又要放到何年何月才上
推 traman      : 索爾：現在初代復仇者 只剩黑寡婦沒子女了
推 kevinpc     : 最後兩段是不是在講布麗拉森和喬登皮爾?
我相信他們的用意與訴求都是好的，只是如果出口前能夠多想一想調整修辭會更好。
推 dragon50119 : Sunset去年在威尼斯的反應好像普普
推 luffyaa     : 是索爾自己啊 沒看到復四他都懷孕了嗎（X
推 orzisme     : 謝謝翻譯
※ 編輯: mysmalllamb (1.171.51.46), 05/15/2019 14:02:01