[討論] Luther拉丁文95條(1517)：3.#10-#19

[theologe (表達你我的信仰~)]

[文本]
#10
甲：
Indocte et male faciunt sacerdotes ii, qui morituris penitentias canonicias
in purgatorium reservant.
（Ignorant and poorly those priests who are dying, reserve canonical penalties
for purgatory.）

乙：
那些在人臨終時愚蠢、惡意行事的神父們，卻把教會法的懲罰擴及煉獄之中。

神甫將教條，所定補贖給臨死者留到煉獄，乃是無知邪惡的。

丙（1.www.luther.de; 2.bookofconcord.org; 3.www.uncommon-travel-germany.com；
  後面順序同）：
Those priests act ignorantly and wickedly who, in the case of the dying,
reserve canonical penalties for purgatory.

Ignorant and wicked are the doings of those priests who, in the case of the
dying, reserve canonical penances for purgatory.

Those priests act unreasonably and ill who reserve for Purgatory the penance
imposed on the dying.

丁：
Unwissend und schlecht handeln diejenigen Priester, die den Sterbenden
kirchliche Bußen für das Fegefeuer aufsparen.
(Ignorant and evil act those priests who are the dying
save church penances for purgatory.)


#11.
甲：
Zizania illa de mutanda pena Canonica in penam purgatorii videntur certe
dormientibus episcopis seminata.
（Tares of changing the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory at least
ormientibus sown while the bishops.）

乙：
將教會法的處罰改成煉獄處罰的那些稗子，顯然是在主教們熟睡時由魔鬼撒下的。
（馬太13：25）

將教條所定的懲罰變為煉獄中的懲罰，很顯然是仇敵在主教們睡覺的時候所撒的一種
稗子。

丙：
Those tares of changing the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory
were evidently sown while the bishops slept (Mt 13:25).

This changing of the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory is quite
evidently one of the tares that were sown while the bishops slept.

This abuse of changing canonical penalty into the penalty of Purgatory seems
to have arisen when the bishops were asleep.

丁：
Die Meinung, daß eine kirchliche Bußstrafe in eine Fegefeuerstrafe
umgewandelt werden könne, ist ein Unkraut, das offenbar gesät worden ist,
während die Bischöfe schliefen.
(The opinion that a church penalty in a purgatory penalty
is a weed that has apparently been sown,
while the bishops slept.)


#12
甲：
Olim pene canonice non post, sed ante absolutionem imponebantur tanquam
tentamenta vere contritionis.
（Once the canonical not after, but before absolution were imposed tests of
true contrition.）

乙：
從前，作為真誠懺悔的考驗，教會法的處罰是在赦罪之前，而不是在其後。

從前實施教條，所定的懲罰，並不是在宣赦之後，而是在宣赦之前，作為真正痛悔的
考驗。

丙：
In former times canonical penalties were imposed, not after, but before
absolution, as tests of true contrition.

In former times canonical penalties were imposed, not after, but before
absolution, as tests of true contrition.

In times of yore, canonical penalties were imposed, not after, but before,
absolution, as tests of true repentance and affliction.

丁：
Früher wurden die kirchlichen Bußstrafen nicht nach, sondern vor der
Absolution auferlegt, gleichsam als Prüfstein für die Aufrichtigkeit der
Reue.
(Earlier, church penalties did not diminish, but before
Absolution imposed, as a test of the sincerity of Remorse.)


#13
甲：
Morituri per mortem omnia solvunt et legibus canonum morituri iam sunt,
habentes irue earum relaxationem.
(Dying are freed by death from all penalties; they are already part of the
dying as the canon laws are concerned, and have a right to be released from
them.)

乙：
臨終之人因其死亡而擺脫了一切懲罰，對教會法已失去感覺，故有權免除其懲罰。

臨死者因死亡就免除了一切懲罰，他們向教條的法規是己經死了，不再受它們的約束。

丙：
The dying are freed by death from all penalties, are already dead as far as
the canon laws are concerned, and have a right to be released from them.

The dying are freed by death from all penalties; they are already dead to
  canonical rules, and have a right to be released from them.

The dying pay all penalties by their death, are already dead to the canons,
and rightly have exemption from them.

丁：
Die Sterbenden werden durch den Tod von allem gelöst, und für die
kirchlichen Satzungen sind sie schon tot, weil sie von Rechts wegen davon
befreit sind.
(The dying are solved by the death of everything, and for the
they are already dead according to ecclesiastical statutes, because of them
by law are liberated.)


#14
甲：
Imperfecta sanitas seu charitas morituri necessario secum fert magnum
timorem, tantoque maiorem, quanto minor ferit ipsa.
(The imperfect soundness or charity of a dying person necessarily brings with
it great fear; and the smaller than most, for so much less, he strikes her
any longer.)

乙：
不充分的虔誠和愛必然使臨終之人感到無比恐懼，而且愛愈少，恐懼愈大。

臨死者心靈的健康若不完全，那即是說，他的愛心若不完全，他便必大有恐懼，而且
愛心越小，恐懼就越大。

丙：
Imperfect piety or love on the part of the dying person necessarily brings
with it great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater the fear.

The imperfect health [of soul], that is to say, the imperfect love, of the
dying brings with it, of necessity, great fear; and the smaller the love,
the greater is the fear.

Imperfect spiritual health or love in the dying person necessarily brings
with it great fear; and the less this love is, the greater the fear it brings.

丁：
Ist die Haltung eines Sterbenden und die Liebe (Gott gegenüber)
unvollkommen, so bringt ihm das notwendig große Furcht, und diese ist um so
größer, je geringer jene ist.
(Is the attitude of a dying and the love (God opposite)
Imperfect, that brings him necessarily great fear, and this is all the more
bigger, the smaller this one is.)


#15
甲：
Hic timor et horror satis est se solo (ut alia taceam) facere penem
purgatorii, cum sit proximus desperationis horrori.
(This fear and horror is sufficient by itself (other things) the penalty of
purgatory, since it is next to the horror of despair.)

乙：
這種驚懼或恐怖，足以構成煉獄的懲罰，因為這是瀕臨絕望的恐懼。

單是這恐懼（且不說其他一切）就足以成為煉獄的懲罰，因其與絕望的恐懼相距不遠。

丙：
This fear or horror is sufficient in itself, to say nothing of other things,
to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror
of despair.

This fear and horror is sufficient of itself alone (to say nothing of other
things) to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the
horror of despair.

This fear and horror - to say nothing of other things - are sufficient in
themselves to produce the punishment of Purgatory, because they approximate
to the horror of despair.

丁：
Diese Furcht und dieser Schrecken genügen für sich allein - um von anderem
zu schweigen -, die Pein des Fegefeuers auszumachen; denn sie kommen dem
Grauen der Verzweiflung ganz nahe.
(This fear and terror suffice on its own - for the sake of others
to be silent - to make out the pain of purgatory; because they come to that
Horror of despair near.)


#16
甲：
Videntur infernus, purgatorium, celum differre, sicut desperatio probe
deperatio, decuritas differunt.
(Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ as despair, and assurance of
safety.)

乙：
地獄、煉獄和天堂的區別似乎就是絕望、恐懼和得救的信念。

地獄，煉獄，和天堂之間的區別，似乎是與絕望，將絕望，和確信之間的區別相同的。

丙：
Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ the same as despair, fear, and
assurance of salvation.

Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ as do despair, almost-despair,
and the assurance of safety.

Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven seem to differ as perfect despair, imperfect
despair, and security of salvation differ.

丁：
Es scheinen sich demnach Hölle, Fegefeuer und Himmel in der gleichen Weise
zu unterscheiden wie Verzweiflung, annähernde Verzweiflung und Sicherheit.
(So hell, purgatory, and heaven seem the same way
to be distinguished as desperation, approaching desperation and security.)


#17
甲：
Necassarium videtur animabus in purgatorio sciut minui horrorem, ita ugeri
charitatem.
(It seems as though for the souls in purgatory fear should necessarily
decrease and love increase.)

乙：
對煉獄中的靈魂來說，恐懼似乎會必然減少，愛心則相應地增長。

靈魂在煉獄裏恐懼越減少，愛心便越增加，這似乎是確實的。

丙：
It seems as though for the souls in purgatory fear should necessarily
decrease and love increase.

With souls in purgatory it seems necessary that horror should grow less and
love increase.

It seems as must in Purgatory love in the souls increase, as fear
diminishes in them.

丁：
Offenbar haben die Seelen im Fegefeuer die Mehrung der Liebe genauso nötig
wie eine Minderung des Grauens.
(Apparently, souls in purgatory have the need to increase love as much
like a reduction of horror.)


#18
甲：
Nec probatum vidertur ullis aut rationibus aut scripturis, quod sint statum
meriti seu augende charitatis.
（Does not seem proved, on any grounds in abilities or any scriptures, that
they are the state of merit or of the increase of charity.）

乙：
此時，理性或聖經似乎都未証明，煉獄中的靈魂已超脫於功罪之外，不能滋長愛心。

我們由理智或聖經似乎都無法證明，這種靈魂不能建立功德，或增加他們的愛心。

丙：
Furthermore, it does not seem proved, either by reason or by Scripture, that
souls in purgatory are outside the state of merit, that is, unable to grow in
love.

It seems unproved, either by reason or Scripture, that they are outside the
state of merit, that is to say, of increasing love.

It does not seem to be proved either by arguments or by the Holy Writ
that they are outside the state of merit and demerit, or increase of love.

丁：
Offenbar ist es auch weder durch Vernunft- noch Schriftgründe erwiesen, daß
sie sich außerhalb des Zustandes befinden, in dem sie Verdienste erwerben
können oder in dem die Liebe zunehmen kann.
(Obviously, it has not been proved either by reason or by writing that
they are outside the state in which they earn merit
or in which love can increase.)


#19
甲：
Nec hoc probatum esse videtur, quod sint de sua betitudine certe et secure,
saltem, licet nos certissimi simus.
（Nor does this appear to be proved, that they are certain and assured of
their own salvation, or at least, though we may be quite certain of it.）

乙：
同時也沒有証明，煉獄中的靈魂，至少不是全部，確信自己已經得救，
即使我們自己可能對此確信無疑。

雖然我們對他們的福祉也許很有把握，但是似乎也無法證明他們自己都有這種把握。

丙：
Nor does it seem proved that souls in purgatory, at least not all of them,
are certain and assured of their own salvation, even if we ourselves may be
entirely certain of it.

Again, it seems unproved that they, or at least that all of them, are
certain or assured of their own blessedness, though we may be quite
certain of it.

This, too, seems not to be proved, that they are all sure and confident of
their salvation, though we may be quite sure of it.

丁：
Offenbar ist auch dieses nicht erwiesen, daß sie - wenigstens nicht
alle - ihrer Seligkeit sicher und gewiß sind, wenngleich wir ihrer
völlig sicher sind.
（Apparently, this is not proven that they - at least not all - their
bliss are sure and certain, even though we are theirs are completely safe.）
--------------------------------------------------------------

[詮釋1階]（待完成）
10.還是會讓人想到某教派的今生成聖不成，來世哀哭切齒中修煉的觀點...
   悔罪聖事（和好聖事）中三程序，痛悔-告解-補贖；
   痛悔在當時中的定位中是否不清楚？
   故#2，痛悔跟告解容易混為一談；
   而#3-4，路德某方面也認為痛悔跟補贖是一生的事情，要同時進行，
   可能也是部份時人的想法？

   無論如何，按#3-4，路德定調這個論綱討論的焦點，
   在於痛悔（內在對付）及補贖（外在對付）。

   但這個過程都應該屬於今世的範疇（#8），
   痛悔跟補贖，其實可以對應我們現在的「成聖」概念，
   也就是「進窄門」的過程。

   進窄門應該是今世的範疇，不應該不過關卻留到來世去哀哭切齒補修；
   來世應該是神的恩典與大能直接作用與成就（#9）；
   不過路德是說不應該把補贖留到來世去，
   或者說教會的手不應該想要在來世的煉獄中可以撈一杯羹，
   但路德在95條沒有否定煉獄的存在，
   那麼今世成聖/補贖不完全，以致於需要煉獄或哀哭切齒補習班這類的存在，
   這個問題何解，似乎路德在95條中仍沒有提出解答--其實#14-17算是一種解答！

   （我的話，是認為，即便今生後仍有不完全處，信到底就是進窄門，
   不完全處，無論在千年國做王，或者在新天新地中，都仍可繼續成長變化，
   不需要跑去哀哭切齒或煉獄走一回。）

11.

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18.

19.

--

你們中間有人對他們說：「平平安安地去吧！願你們穿得暖，吃得飽」，
卻不給他們身體所需用的，這有甚麼益處呢？（雅2：16）

--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 106.104.38.8
※ 文章網址: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Christianity/M.1535292000.A.AE9.html
※ 編輯: theologe (106.104.38.8), 08/26/2018 22:01:19
推 fyodor: 我找到另兩種英譯，貼在
→ fyodor: #1RW3qmqN (Christianity)
推 fyodor: 另外這裏19英譯Again, it seems unproved that they, or a
→ fyodor: t least that all of them, are certain or assured of th
→ fyodor: eir own blessedness, though we may be quite certain of
→ fyodor:  it.感覺怪怪， 可是我查這個譯本的幾個不同網頁貼文，每
→ fyodor: 一個都是這樣子，各位大大看看是不是有問題。
我還沒有細看，
新玩具是估狗翻譯，拉丁文翻出來是：
Nor does this appear to be proved, that they are certain and assured of
their own salvation, or at least, though we may be quite certain of it.
不知道您覺得有問題之處為？

正文的英譯文一大堆的"that"、代名詞、關係代名詞，是有點拗口、難解...
※ 編輯: theologe (211.75.23.84), 08/27/2018 16:19:49
推 fyodor: 一開始我直覺that是not之誤，但是我找了這個版本的其他來
→ fyodor: 源，也都是用that,於是我就沒有把握了。可是後來我找到 這
→ fyodor: 個譯本
→ fyodor: https://goo.gl/yP1sS8
推 fyodor: 我覺得它有可能真的是誤植
只能排看看...
Again, it seems unproved that they,
                         or at least that all of them,
                                   are certain or assured of
                                   their own blessedness,
                                   though we may be quite certain of it.

Nor does it seem proved that souls in purgatory,
                             at least not all of them,
                                  are certain and assured of
                                  their own salvation,
                                  even if we ourselves
                                            may be entirely certain of it.

Nor does this appear to be proved, that they
                                        are certain and assured of
                                        their own salvation,
                                   or at least,
                                        though we
                                                 may be quite certain of it.

  Offenbar ist auch dieses nicht erwiesen, daß sie - wenigstens nicht
  alle - ihrer Seligkeit sicher und gewiß sind, wenngleich wir ihrer
  völlig sicher sind.
  （估狗翻譯：
  Apparently, this is not proven that they - at least not all - their
  bliss are sure and certain, even though we are theirs are completely safe.）
-------------------------------------
德文也是有加一個"nicht/not"，
但拉丁文真的就是一個"saltem（at least），"沒有"not"，
可能"saltem"或"at least that all of them"有否定的意思？
還是單純是錯譯？

-------------------------------------
但無論是英文的特別用法，或是錯譯，
協同書網站的那個英譯版本，我應該會把參考順位往後擺；
感謝fy指出來這個問題。

-------------------------------------
考慮書寫的困難，
可能會朝每個分段，[文本]一篇，[詮釋/議論]一篇的方式。
※ 編輯: theologe (211.75.23.84), 08/29/2018 22:09:35
推 Kangin75: .

saltem（at least）的問題，
我丟到拉丁文版：#1RXAB3mW (Latina)

主要是要修飾哪一個子句的問題：
「他們中間至少有人對獲得救恩確信」，
還是「至少我們是對救恩確信」。

至於英譯的兩個版本，後來想想文意其實沒有差別：
「至少他們（煉獄中靈魂）全體對於救恩的確信，是未證明的；但我們卻是確信。」
「若非可證明他們至少並非全體對於救恩有確信，即便我們是完全確信的。」

而若「至少」是修飾後一個子句，反而比較簡單理解：
「他們對於救恩的確信是沒有證明的，但至少我們是確信的。」
※ 編輯: theologe (112.105.154.122), 09/03/2018 14:25:45